Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Sept. 28th, 2017

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

So it wouldn't really solve the situation?

[A/Commr Joanne Crampton]

No, not from our point of view. We don't believe it would.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

There is an argument, and probably a very valid one, that there is a loophole in the system between Canada and the U.S. in this third party agreement, which does not specify people falling through the cracks on port of entry. Have governments prior to this one or the IRCC tried before to negotiate with the United States to perhaps close that gap?

[Paul MacKinnon]

We're not aware, post the 2002 negotiation, that governments tried to renegotiate. We're not aware of that.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

There was an article in 2010 in which the former minister of immigration stated that they had attempted to renegotiate this with the Obama administration, and that there was push-back and no result from that. Is that not true?

[Paul MacKinnon]

I've read that same article, but I can't verify that the negotiation or the attempt actually happened.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

So you're not aware of any previous government trying to negotiate that, particularly the previous government?

[Paul MacKinnon]

I'm personally not aware. I don't know if colleagues are aware, but I'm not aware.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

It could be just some smoke and mirrors that previous immigration ministers are using to justify that they tried.

I would like to find out if we have identified any smuggling rings that might be using human suffering as a way to make money off of this. Since thousands are coming over into one particular crossing, has there been co-operation with U.S. law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies to identify whether there are any large-scale human smuggling rings that are organizing a mass migration through particular routes through South America from Africa or Haiti, or have we not identified any of these?

[Jacques Cloutier]

I can certainly tell you that it is for us a major, significant preoccupation and that efforts are engaged. I'm sure that if such networks existed, we could effect a response to those networks. Up until now, there is no evidence of such organized networks. There are people who are benefiting from the situation, but from our perspective we are not yet aware of human trafficking that would support these movements at this time.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

As to integrity—this is a joint question to the RCMP and CBSA—can you comfortably say to Canadians that each and every migrant person seeking asylum in Canada is getting a thorough background and criminality check and that we can rest assured and be safe knowing that our law enforcement is doing a great job?

[Jacques Cloutier]

I can certainly tell you that we put in place every factor to mitigate risk as we understand it. I think it's also important to understand that once people are released for the second part of the process, our security evaluations continue; they don't stop at the initial interview. If new information were to come to light, action would be taken, it would be factored into the eligibility hearings as well, and it would be subject to a number of different mechanisms to mitigate those risks further down the chain also.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Do you see any higher rate of criminality from these asylum seekers, in comparison with previous patterns?

[Jacques Cloutier]

On this particular point, Mr. Chair, I haven't done the analysis to compare it with prior years, but I can tell you that, as my colleague from the RCMP pointed out, the numbers are negligible when it comes to criminality overall, at this point.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

So it's very low numbers...if any of those are taken into account and either removed or detained, depending on the severity?

[Jacques Cloutier]

Depending on the scenario, the person would either be handed over to the local police jurisdiction for proceedings to take place or, depending on the nature of the criminality, the case could be viewed by the CBSA as an admissibility question, which would first be cleared up before the process continued for that individual. Necessary actions would be taken at that point, depending on the nature of the offence.

[The Co-Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

Mr. Saroya is next, for five minutes.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you to both chairs and thank you to all the witnesses for coming.

Mr. MacDonald, you mentioned that 80 people were taken away from their regular duties and have gone to Montreal. What effect did this have on the regular immigration files? As you know, we get the most calls in our offices looking for spousal sponsorship, family reunion sponsorship, and many other matters. I have one and a half full-time person equivalents working on these delays.

What was the delay before and what is the delay now, after taking these 80 people from their regular jobs?

[Michael MacDonald]

The answer to that, Chair, goes back to the way we process immigration applications overall within our department. We have different processing networks, which process different kinds of applications in different offices in different places under different management.

It's true that within our domestic network, of which Mr. Dumas is the director general, we looked primarily to his area and chose officers with appropriate skill sets and took efforts to backfill for those officers, all in the context of mitigating as much as possible any impacts to other lines of business.

Some lines of business in Immigration and Citizenship will not be touched or affected by this at all, because of the way we choose our officers to go to Montreal. We are also now looking at sending officers back from Montreal as we get through the work that we need to get through.

Overall the impact has been relatively minor, and we'll only know at the end of the year, because we still have several months of production during which we can adjust and calibrate our output.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

What was the delay before? Do we have any numbers on the delay in taking these people out? How much longer does it take to process these applications today, compared with before July?

[Michael MacDonald]

That would depend on which line of business specifically we are talking about. As you are aware, sir, we have multiple and different lines of business. It's a very difficult question for me to answer.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

In the government definition, what is a refugee?

[Michael MacDonald]

The refugee definition goes back to various international conventions, and that is the best place to look. Generally speaking, it is those who fear persecution or prosecution for a variety of reasons.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Some of the people we see on the news on a daily basis, on CBC or CTV, are people coming to Quebec or to various other places. They're driving SUVs and carrying iPhones, among other things. In your opinion, are they refugees, or are they just taking advantage of the Canadian generosity?

[Michael MacDonald]

The socio-economic status of a person claiming asylum or of an overseas refugee is really not part of the equation. It is based on what circumstances the individual is facing in terms of persecution, fear, and so on. It is not about how wealthy or economically stable they are.