Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 5th, 2017

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm going to call the meeting to order.

This is meeting number 89 of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, as we continue our briefing on resettlement issues related to Yazidi women and girls.

One of the issues that has come up in the settlement process of a small population with a non-widely disseminated language is providing interpretation, the difficulties and challenges of providing that, and we're actually seeing that this morning. We had testimony at our last meeting from community interpreters talking about finding interpreters who are professional or could be accredited in some way in a language that doesn't have that formal being.

We're going to begin with Professor Clifford, who does teach in the area of conference interpreting, but also has experience in the field of general interpreting and translation.

Professor Clifford, welcome. You have seven minutes.

[Andrew Clifford, Director, Master of Conference Interpreting, Glendon College, York University, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I intend to make some initial comments in French. Then I will change to English, if that works for you.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, first, I would like to thank you for inviting me to talk to you about interpreter training, which is close to my heart.

In the few minutes I have been given, I would like first to paint you a picture of the program I represent, the Master's degree in conference interpreting. Then I will explain some of the obstacles we have to face in training interpreters that may well have some effect on the arrival and settlement of female Yezidi refugees.

The Master of Conference Interpreting offered on the Glendon Campus of York University is a two-year graduate program. The first year is given entirely online to students from all around the world and the second year is taught on campus in Toronto.

The program has two objectives. First, our aim is to train conference interpreters, like those working in the booths in this committee room. Of course, we train interpreters in English and French, but we also train them for other markets, such as Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, Turkish, Russian and Arabic.

Our graduates work on Parliament Hill, but also for the International Committee of the Red Cross, for United Nations agencies, and in various private markets around the world.

You may be interested to learn that former students in the Master's program at Glendon College trained the 500 interpreters who greeted the 30,000 Syrian refugees a year and a half or two years ago. It was also one of our graduates whom you saw on television when the Prime Minister welcomed the first Syrian family to arrive.

That sort of gives you a brief introduction to the program that I'm responsible for here at the university.

I'd now like to talk about two obstacles that we're facing. These two obstacles are interrelated and might have an impact on some of the issues that you're looking at.

First off, I'll say that it's not very easy for us to find qualified applicants. We do have to look around the world. It's one of the reasons that we do some of our training online. When the time comes to bring those students to Canada, it's not always easy. This is particularly true with regard to Middle Eastern languages. Our applicants are routinely refused study permits. In fact, I'm dealing with a case now where an applicant is a trained translator. She works with written translation, and she'd now like to become a trained interpreter. However, an embassy official refused her study permit because, apparently, he didn't understand that there was a difference between translation and interpreting and said, “You already have training in this area; you don't need to come to Canada.”

That's sort of the first obstacle that we face in trying to get qualified applicants into the program. It's connected to the second obstacle that we face, which I think, in large part, is due to the ignorance that the public has about the complexities of interpreting. It's very wrongly assumed by most people outside the field that it's not a very difficult task and that if you speak two languages, then that's enough. In fact, interpreting is a very specialized skill, whether it takes place in the conference setting or in the community setting.

One of the things I forgot to mention about Glendon is that while we train conference interpreters, we also train people for the community market. We have courses in medical and in legal interpreting. Students who finish the first year with us and don't go on to the second year often go into the market as community interpreters.

I'll just give you a very brief idea of how specialized this skill is. We know of a case, for example, where a patient who didn't speak English went into a hospital. A family member who spoke both languages interpreted for the patient, but a mix-up between the words “right” and “left” resulted in the patient having the wrong leg amputated. Instead of being a single amputee, he wound up being a double amputee. There was a case here in Canada where confusion between the words “back” and “stomach” caused a B.C. man to lose a leg and a kidney, and to be paralyzed in his right arm. This is not work that we want to put into the hands of people who are untrained or unqualified.

The skill that's required to do this work is often grossly underestimated, and as a consequence, it tends to be grossly undervalued and grossly undercompensated. What tends to happen is that people who go into community interpreting and who have the skill set to do the work well don't find the compensation that they're looking for, that they need, so they tend to leave. It's very difficult for us to build capacity in community interpreting with the high turnover of interpreters.

I know that last week you heard from my colleague, Lola Bendana, who is very active on several fronts in our field, with the “National Standard Guide for Community Interpreting Services”, with the championing of the language interpreter training program at a number of community colleges here in Ontario, and also with the Ontario Council on Community Interpreting and its new accreditation system.

This gives you a sense of the landscape that is out there that many of us are trying to build and get off the ground. I would argue that a lot more needs to be done to ensure that trained interpreters are used when interpretation is needed, that those interpreters are remunerated adequately, and that, in many cases, the interpreters have help in gaining access to training and accreditation.

We're a country that relies on immigration to support our labour force and to feed into our social safety net. It's time for us to recognize that interpretation plays a key role in the settling of newcomers to this country. We should get serious about supporting interpretation.

That's what I have to say to you now.

I'm happy to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Perfect. Thank you very much. Your timing was excellent.

Lobat Sadrehashemi, welcome.

You have seven minutes to share.

[Lobat Sadrehashemi, Lawyer, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the invitation to speak to you today.

I work as a refugee lawyer in Vancouver. I am the president of the Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers, but I am speaking on my own behalf today.

Before I start my comments, I should say that my work is and has been primarily with refugees who have already somehow made their way to Canada and claimed asylum once they arrived here. I do not have specific expertise on the situation of Yazidi refugees. Where I thought I could make some contribution to your study was on two points: the specialized services needed for refugees who have experienced severe trauma, including the need for family reunification, and more broadly, Canada's resettlement program.

First, on specialized services needed for refugees who arrive in Canada, I have experience working with women who have experienced violence and gender persecution. At one time, this was the primary focus of my practice. Each case is different, and the particular needs of a community will of course vary, but there is no doubt to me that arriving in a safe country is not the end of the journey of feeling safe and secure. The work continues, in some cases for many years after a refugee's resettlement.

You've heard from a number of witnesses about the specialized services needed for Yazidi refugees—women and children who have suffered horrific abuses and have come to Canada with severe trauma. I urge the committee to listen to the voices of the survivors themselves, and to those who are working with these communities, about the specialized services that would benefit them in resettlement. I echo the comments made this morning about the importance of proper interpretation and the use of trained interpreters in this work.

Canada has undertaken a special program to bring these refugees to Canada. When we bring refugees to Canada, we also have an obligation to try to estimate the types of services they may need and to monitor and respond to their needs. Refugees who have experienced this kind of trauma need specialized services. It is important to pay attention to the services they need and to respond. An investment in these services not only is the right thing to do, but it would also likely mean that community integration happens faster.

You have heard from survivors and those who work with them in Canada that family separation is particularly devastating to those who have experienced severe trauma and been resettled. Family reunification has been recognized by the UNHCR and by the government as an essential step in refugee resettlement. The UNHCR has recognized the family as “an essential right of the refugee” in its 1983 “Guidelines on Reunification of Refugee Families”.

There has been research—an Australian study in 2013, for example—that has found that being separated from their families had “pervasive impacts on the wellbeing [of refugees] and on their capacity to participate and direct their own futures”. The study concluded that family reunification must be “a crucial consideration for the design and provision of settlement services” to a refugee.

For refugees who survive trauma, separation from family can be especially difficult. Having the family together is absolutely critical to feeling safe and protected in one's new home. Efforts to reunify families have to be considered as part of our resettlement strategy. This may be done through special programs. It does not necessarily have to be through the resettlement process.

The second point I have to make is about setting priorities for Canada's resettlement program. It is no easy task to decide who is chosen for resettlement in Canada and who is left behind. I want to echo the comments made by the UNHCR representative who appeared before you, as well as Professor Shauna Labman. Both talked about establishing priorities for resettlement based on UNHCR's global resettlement criteria. These are objective criteria based on legal and physical protection needs, survivors of violence and torture, medical needs, women at risk, children at risk, and so on.

Where we do have special programs and initiatives for particular groups of refugees, this should not be carved out of Canada's targets that have already been set by the government for resettlement. When viewed in the context of the scale of the crisis, Canada's targets on resettlement are not high.

In 2018 we've capped government-assisted refugees at 7,500. As many of you know, there are refugees suffering in camps all over the world who have been victims of rape, torture, who have lost their family members, and who feel forgotten by Canada and the world as they wait to be resettled.

I would be remiss if I did not say to a committee studying refugees—and it's been said many times, but it is worth repeating—that this is a global refugee crisis. There have never been so many displaced people since World War II, and with these increasing numbers, in my view, Canada as a wealthy nation needs to respond by increasing its numbers. And in particular the number of government-assisted refugees is particularly low.

Thank you. Those are my submissions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

Now we're going to Nadre Atto. Aveen is going to be with her, but Nadre will begin.

We'll probably have interpretation.

You can begin. Thank you.

[Nadre Atto, As an Individual]

[Witness speaks in Kermanji]

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Just one minute. We're trying to find the English or French interpretation.

[Nadre Atto]

Thank you very much, Canadian government, for giving us all this help, and also, thank you for letting me express my problems. I really thank you.

I was under arrest by ISIS for two years. I was at the point of committing suicide. My kids were there with me but I couldn't do anything for them because I was sold easily more than 10 times. All I want from the Canadian government and from the authorities is their help in getting our people released, freed from ISIS.

I am one of them and there are lots of people like me, and some of them even have a worse situation. Our honour...we shouldn't let my honour be on their hands. Also, my 10-year-old daughter got married to a terrorist in front of my eyes. Who could accept their own kids being married to somebody at that age?

Eight members of my family plus my daughter are all in the hands of ISIS. Nobody could help us and we have no information about what happened to them.

I'm really thankful and grateful. I just wish and hope you guys help Yazidi people. Also, I'm thankful for the Canadian government helping our people. I spent two years under arrest and I saw too many things happen. I am not really happy here because my mom and my daughter are not here. I'm always crying and thinking about them. I'm not comfortable here. I hope you do something to find the mass graves; the young women and girls are all being killed and buried. We should find all these bodies and let the families know. This all has happened to our Yazidis. It's been 80 times we've been massacred by those people.

In 2017, Daesh did an explosion in the area of the Yazidis. They tried to massacre and kill all the Yazidis. They killed my dad. They killed my uncle. My brother was wounded. Five members of my family in one hour were all gone. This all happened to my family. It's not once or twice, it's too many times this has happened to us. I'm begging and I hope you guys will be helpful for us and try some kinds of ways to release our people.

When I came to Canada, I had no information about Canada. I didn't know any English. My brother was with me. I went to the hotel. I was in the hotel for two months. It was a very hard time for me, because I had trauma and I was still kind of afraid and scared. There were no Yazidis to help me or any other people. There was no one to help us.

After a month in this situation, we didn't know what to do. We didn't know where to go. There were two Yazidi people by the name of Hayder and Ismail. They came and they helped us a lot. They rented a house for us. We didn't even know how to rent a house.

It has been five months that we've been in Canada and still we are refugees here, so we expect the Canadian government to help us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I want to let you know that you have about one minute left.

[Nadre Atto]

We want you to bring more Yazidis in this situation and to help us. Our rent is too high. If you could help us, and also if you could bring my brother, sister, and my mom.... I tried to commit suicide three times, but because of my kids, I couldn't. My kid was 10, and in front of my eyes she was forced to marry an ISIS terrorist. I hope you help us to bring all those kids and those girls here and make them free.

Thank you for helping the Yazidis, and especially Nadia Murad.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

[Nadre Atto]

Thanks all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you for being here, and I also thank you for sharing your story with us.

We will go now to the Mozuud Freedom Foundation, and Debbie Rose and Gary Rose. I'm not sure who's going to begin.

Thank you.

[Debbie Rose, Manager, Project Abraham, Mozuud Freedom Foundation]

Mr. Chair, on behalf of Project Abraham and the Richmond Hill Yazidi community, I want to express our heartfelt gratitude to the Government of Canada for having brought survivors of the Yazidi genocide to Canada, where they can survive and thrive. It's only time constraints that compel me to leave out the wonderful successes we've observed in the resettlement activities of this Yazidi community and to focus solely on the challenges.

Please let it be noted in the record that all recommendations provided by Operation Ezra are also the recommendations of Project Abraham. We provide the same services. We have run into the same challenges in the resettlement of the GARs, and our recommendations are the same.

Many of our GAR families are going hungry while waiting for child benefit payments. Without these payments, the money provided to them barely covers rent, let alone anything else. Child benefit payments should arrive within 11 weeks from the time of application. However, there is a continual glitch where, around this time, the family receives notification that the government is waiting to receive information on the spouse's income. This is happening to grieving widows. In reality, some families do not see these payments for up to six months.

The experience of arriving in Canada often exacerbates the trauma of Yazidi refugees. They are met by people who speak the language of their oppressors. They are taken to a dirty hotel room, where it can take a couple of days before anyone communicates with them. They have no knowledge of an existing Yazidi community that could immediately welcome them, and which would go a very long way towards bringing them comfort. The food is alien and for some, seemingly inedible. They are not given adequate orientation on what they can expect to happen next. They get minimal, if any, help in finding a home. Some initially believed they were back in the hands of ISIS. From their perspective, their future is uncertain and frightening.

There is huge, ongoing stress for Yazidis due to being separated from surviving family members who are still in Iraq. The Canadian government allows for family reunification under the one-year window of opportunity provision, which assumes that family members left behind are identified in the original application. This is often not done by Yazidis, who believe these family members to be dead. Sometimes spouses and children are discovered alive after the fact. Under the current provision, they cannot be brought over without a long, drawn-out process that could take years.

Project Abraham raises money to help with resettlement projects, as well as to bring in more privately sponsored Yazidi families. However, it is challenging to raise funds for the administrative costs involved in managing the larger project. If Project Abraham had funds available to hire more staff, there is so much more we could do to help our Yazidi community.

As a result of all issues mentioned here, Project Abraham would like to make the following recommendations:

One, inform the local Yazidi community when Yazidi refugees will arrive and where they will be placed, so that a delegation can meet them at the airport and provide immediate support.

Two, expedite the processing of child benefit payments and correct the application to reflect the correct information regarding widows.

Three, extend the one-year window of opportunity provision for victims of genocide to include family members who are discovered to be alive after the refugee families have emigrated to Canada. In addition, for the special needs of this community, extend this provision to siblings and parents.

Four, provide funding for staff for grassroots resettlement undertakings like Project Abraham and Operation Ezra, which are working daily with the Yazidi community to help them resettle, heal, and integrate fully into Canadian society, enhancing the existing government services.

Five, prioritize genocide as a criterion for selecting refugees to resettle in Canada, and therefore work outside of the UNHCR, which has stated it does not use genocide as a criterion, directly contravening both the UN and the GOC mandate.

To speak more on this, I will pass the floor to our communications director, Gary Rose.

[Gary Rose, Director of Communications, Project Abraham, Mozuud Freedom Foundation]

The Government of Canada has proudly done the right thing. It has recognized that Canada has a moral obligation to protect the Yazidis from the existential threat of genocide. It has responded by committing to relocate women and children survivors of ISIS to Canada.

While its execution of the relocation has not been without problems, it needs to be congratulated on its moral intent. Still, Canada, as a signee to the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, must continue to do more for the Yazidis. It is an obligation that must not end with the current initiative since not only is it fundamental to the role Canada has taken in the world as a peacekeeper and a nation that respects the right of all people to live in freedom, but also it is our duty by international agreement. We cannot claim the moral high ground if we limit sanctuary for a people who have experienced genocide. We must as a moral nation do our fullest to uphold our commitment and to continue to help the survivors.

It was with great pain that I, as a Canadian and as a Jew who knows only too well about genocide, heard that the representative of the UNHCR, speaking before this committee, refused to acknowledge the obligation of the UN regarding the Yazidi genocide. It was with great pain that I heard from his lips that the UNHCR is ignoring its mandate as required by the 1948 Geneva Convention by having a stated policy that disregards and contradicts the policy of the Government of Canada on the genocide of the Yazidis. It was even more astonishing to hear it while knowing that a survivor of the Yazidi genocide, Nadia Murad, is a UN goodwill ambassador and spokesperson who is demanding justice for her people.

Given this flagrant disregard, I urge the Government of Canada, out of respect for its moral leadership, to continue the Canadian initiative to help the Yazidis, who are still facing an existential crisis, by following the U.S. government's lead to no longer fund the UNHCR with regard to the minorities in Iraq and to commit to work directly through its own agencies and NGOs on the ground in Iraq to resettle Yazidi refugees who need sanctuary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

We're going to go to our questioning round, starting with Mr. Tabbara.

I'll just give you notice that I'll be pretty tight on the seven minutes today.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Just give me a one-minute warning if you can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I would actually tell all members to have their staff give them a one-minute warning. That would be the role of the staff. I will try, but I'm usually listening to the testimony and the questions.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

Thank you for your bravery in sharing your much-needed story with the committee. I think the committee needs to hear about what's been happening. Unfortunately, with lack of security and stability, atrocities like this happen too often. The world needs to pay attention to these atrocities.

This is our final meeting on resettlement issues regarding the Yazidis. This committee really wants to come out with recommendations on what we can do with the resettled Yazidis we have here now. I thank you all for your testimony.

With regard to language training and interpretation, Mr. Clifford, you mentioned in your testimony that it wasn't very easy to find interpreters and translators. Oftentimes people can translate, but they can't interpret. You gave an example of individuals going into medical clinics or into hospitals who have given the wrong information. You mentioned some of the outcomes of that.

Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?

[Andrew Clifford]

Sure I can.

I'm going to start though by making a distinction. You said two things that I just want to make very clear. What we're talking about here is not language training. When people come to an interpreter training program, the assumption is that they already have a very strong command of their working languages. We don't train them to speak another language. We train them to interpret. The skill set to interpret is extremely demanding. The languages are in place before they come to us.

The other distinction that I want to make is between written translation on one hand and spoken interpreting on the other. Those are two separate skill sets, although connected in some ways. Very often in interpreting programs, the people who come to us have a background in written translation. We use that as a springboard to teach them to interpret.

With regard to the examples I was giving, one was based in the United States and the other one was based in Canada. They are typical of what tends to happen. About 10 years ago, I was part of study that was conducted in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. We spoke to a 150 different primary care physicians, nurses, and social workers who dealt with patients who don't speak either dominant language, English or French, and the services that are provided. We heard stories like these, in which very often family members are called upon to interpret. Clearly that's not sufficient. In some cases, family members may not even have the language competency. They certainly don't have the interpretation training.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

May I interrupt and get specific with some of the difficulties you've been finding with Kermanji, the language? I know you've had witnesses in London, and they said because there's a bigger Yazidi population there, it was a little easier for them to find interpreters and translators.

How difficult is it for you to find qualified applicants? That's what you mentioned in your testimony.

[Andrew Clifford]

I'll start by saying that we don't work with Kermanji. We work with the languages I mentioned at the outset. The closest and most relevant language we work with might be Arabic. But I can talk generally about how difficult it is to find people who have the qualifications.

We're looking for very rare individuals. In my case they have to have a university degree or a graduate program. In the case of the language interpreter training program, which is offered by the community colleges in Ontario, the requirements are a little less stringent, but still there. We're looking for somebody who has prior university training, speaks the two languages, can pass an entry test, and has the ability to analyze situations.

What's challenging about interpreting in the community setting might be going back and forth, rendering a message from one language to another, but it's very often dealing with the power differential between the two players who are face to face. In the medical setting, for example, imagine a doctor who's very often white, male, invested with a lot of education and power in the institution where he's working, on one hand. Then maybe it's a refugee who is often a woman, a person of colour, hasn't had access to a lot of education, and does not have a lot of power in that situation. Communicating back in forth is difficult.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Sadrehashemi, we had a witness named Jean-Nicolas Beuze from the UN. He mentioned the need of refugees around the world for resettlement. He gave us some numbers to understand the instability that is happening around the world. I'm going to read something:

By the end of 2016, 65.6 million individuals were forcibly displaced worldwide as a result of persecution, conflict, violence, or human rights violations. UNHCR estimated that at least 10 million people were stateless or at risk of statelessness in 2016. 37 countries admitted 189,300 refugees for resettlement during the year, including those resettled with UNHCR’s assistance.

You can see the millions of people in need, and the small amount.... So yes, the world needs to take more action. Canada has taken really good action in welcoming over 50,000 Syrian refugees, and we've committed to 1,200 Yazidis as well.

Of refugees worldwide, 55% come from South Sudan, Afghanistan, and Syria. How do you suggest Canada balance the interests of all refugees and vulnerable groups without prioritizing ethnic groups? We need to ensure we're bringing in refugees from all around the world because the need is so great.

[Lobat Sadrehashemi]

It's an incredibly difficult task to figure out who is the most vulnerable among the most vulnerable. That's why I think an objective criterion is necessary. That's why I referred to the global resettlement criteria. That's not perfect and of course there are crises that elevate a need for protection on a localized basis and it is completely appropriate for Canada to have special programs in those circumstances.

I think the main point is that it is a global crisis, and to maintain our number at 7,500 for government-assisted refugees is much too low.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you. I need to end it there.

Ms. Rempel.