Evidence of meeting #22 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was caregivers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you, Mr. Allison.
We will now move on to Mr. Regan.
Mr. Regan, you have six minutes for your round of questions.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I'll also start off with Ms. Connery.
At the beginning of this study, we heard from officials from Statistics Canada, ESDC, and IRCC, the immigration department. One of the things we heard is that in 2017, 26% of Canada's workforce were immigrants. The figures also show that while temporary foreign workers represent 2.9% of the Canadian workforce overall, that percentage rose in agriculture, forestry, fishing and hunting to over 15%, as I'm sure you probably know.
Obviously, immigration is very important for labour in a number of ways. Have you seen a major labour market change since the pandemic and can you explain where you've seen shortages and where you think gaps can be addressed?
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Madam Chair, I don't want to interrupt my colleague, but I am telling you that we no longer have interpretation.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
I don't want to interrupt my colleague, but apparently, we no longer have interpretation.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Mr. Clerk, could you please check.
Thanks, Madame Normandin. We will look into it. I'll stop the clock.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
If we keep speaking in English, we'll know if the interpretation is working, because Madam Normandin will tell us in due course, I'm sure, as she starts to get interpretation.
She's getting it now.
May I start over, Madam Chair?
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you.
The question is for the Canadian Horticultural Council.
Early on, we heard from officials at Statistics Canada, Employment and Social Development Canada and IRCC, that in 2017, 26% of Canada's workforce were immigrants. The figures tell us that while temporary foreign workers represent 2.9% of the Canadian workforce, in the agriculture, forestry, fishing and hunting industries that rose to over 15%.
Obviously, immigration is important for labour. How have you seen the labour market change since the pandemic and can you explain where you've seen shortages and where the gaps can be addressed?
3:55 p.m.
Chair, Labour Committee, Canadian Horticultural Council
Yes, I certainly can.
Immigration is very important labour for our country, but the reality is that we are out in the rural areas, where there isn't public transportation, and very often immigrants are going into the large centres where there are vibrant immigrant communities that support them and can give them all the supports they need.
Therefore, it's very difficult to have them come out to the farm. I have done this; I've supplied work for farms. Very often the people you get are ones who have their very first jobs, who have never worked before, and we can provide some of them with a reference when they're finished. But there just aren't enough of them who are even interested in trying that. We are very much reliant on the temporary foreign workers who come in from other countries. In particular, in horticulture, we tend to use SAWP, which is a stand-alone program that is very well regulated and the contracts are done with the sending countries, so those countries know exactly what their citizens are walking into.
They're long and ongoing programs that have been with us for 50 years. We are well familiar with these workers; many of them come back year after year. If there is a position that opens that we cannot fill and that becomes a year-round position, very often we will go to those employees and see if we can help them immigrate to fill those positions. But the reality is that on my farm, I start harvesting asparagus in May and I finish harvesting carrots and broccoli and squash in October, and that's it. Canadians, rightfully, would like a job that will pay the bills year-round. There is nothing wrong with that, except that it leaves us looking for someone to do a job in a time frame when there is no one available.
Some people have suggested students and that kind of thing, but it also doesn't doesn't encompass the time frame, May to October, for any of the school years that are encompassed. It does mean that we go looking outside of our sources. Certainly, here on our farm, we've been using the SAWP program since the early 1980s, so there's been a demonstrable lack of local labour for 40-plus years.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Let me turn to Food and Beverage Canada, if I may, Madam Chair, in relation to migrant workers. On the question of making migrant workers part of a federal strategy in addressing labour shortages, how has the pandemic impacted access to labour and employment for employers and for migrant workers during this period? What are some of the obstacles you see in filling gaps in the labour market? If you wish to answer the first question that I have, please do.
April 12th, 2021 / 4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Food and Beverage Canada
I'll start in general and then turn to Daniel because, obviously, he's got first-hand knowledge from his company. Broadly, when we talk to the breadth of our members across the country, when we went into COVID-19 we were facing a very serious labour shortage and still are. This very strange phenomenon is going on whereby we have very high unemployment rates in the country and yet as an industry we are still facing very high vacancy rates.
As Beth has talked about, that largely has to do in some cases with the seasonal nature of the jobs, the fact that jobs aren't where the people who are looking for work are, and the nature of the jobs in some cases. That's definitely a structural issue that we really have to figure out, and I don't think enough time has been spent on the part of policy-makers in federal and provincial governments on understanding the structural issues that are going on here. The pandemic has made very clear to us that this is a structural problem.
Daniel can probably talk to you about the specifics of his company through the pandemic.
4 p.m.
Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Groupe Bonduelle, Chief Executive Officer, Bonduelle Americas, and Co-Chair, Food and Beverage Canada
I certainly can. It has complicated things a lot. Here I am speaking of all of the tests and everything that needed to be done to make sure that the housing would respect all of the regulations needed to protect the employees and the workers themselves, and also the other workers, the local workers, who would work close to these people in the plant. All of these measures are adding costs and prove that if we're continually hiring these foreign workers, it's certainly not to save money. It's because we don't have a choice. You said it: If we can hire Canadians, we'll always do that first, because it's not only much easier, but also much cheaper because we don't incur all of these other costs, and as businesses we want to be competitive.
I also operate a plant in the U.S. I don't have that problem there because I hire Puerto Ricans who automatically have the same rights to work as Americans, and I don't need to pay special permits and special this and special that. It's an advantage that I have as a company south of this country.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you.
Madame Normandin, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I thank the witnesses for being here.
My first questions will be directed primarily to those representing the Canadian Horticultural Council and Food and Beverage Canada.
You talked about possibly having trusted employer programs. You also said that the same employees generally come back year after year to meet the same demand for work, in the same setting. So the needs are predictable.
Would it not be easier for you if the duration of LMIAs, work permits and visas were extended? Would that be a feasible option, since the situation is practically the same every time?
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Groupe Bonduelle, Chief Executive Officer, Bonduelle Americas, and Co-Chair, Food and Beverage Canada
It's kind of like Groundhog Day: We do the same thing over again every year. We provide the same justifications of our need to use the same people to fill the same jobs. Every year, we face the same reluctance and the same barriers. It's unbelievable: we have to redo everything we took care of the previous year.
Sometimes you have new people processing applications, but sometimes it's the same people who approved them the year before. They tell us they have to follow the rules and procedures for the current year. Obviously, we would welcome a solution like the one you are proposing.
That said, some workers have been with us for 30 years. Although they come back every year, we wouldn't expect to get a 30-year permit.
But surely the process can be streamlined when the same person from the same place will be in the same position in the same company, the same plant. It makes no sense to start the process over as if it had never been done before.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
In the same vein, perhaps they could consider having more sector-specific LMIAs or work permits, targeting certain types of jobs, for example, or certain regions where, COVID-19 aside, the unemployment rate is generally fairly low under normal circumstances.
Would that option give employers more flexibility?
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Groupe Bonduelle, Chief Executive Officer, Bonduelle Americas, and Co-Chair, Food and Beverage Canada
I can answer that question as well.
For sure, it would.
In the small communities where we have our plants, because our facilities are in rural areas near agricultural land, when these workers come in it's a feast. The population of the village grows automatically. There's investment. They spend money, they go to the market, they do this and they do that.
We can certainly have that. It's a great way of populating the regions that are depopulating with original Canadians. Clearly, we could do that.
That's why I was suggesting, and I was under pressure, that we should allow these workers to become immigrants after two or three years, much more easily. They've shown they like the country and they understand the country. Most of them start learning the language in which they work. It would be great if they could bring their families and populate these areas that badly need more people.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Actually, I'd like to talk to you about the fact that we would like to see Canada grant permanent residency to those workers who are here year after year. Often, those workers might like to get training while they are working. I have often heard that request in my constituency. However, their work permit does not allow them to do it. For example, some people say that they would like to do agricultural training and improve their skills so that they can be more involved in the decisions made by the operation, or improve their French, which would help them in their efforts to obtain permanent residency. However, right now, they can't do that.
Would that be worth exploring, in your opinion?
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Groupe Bonduelle, Chief Executive Officer, Bonduelle Americas, and Co-Chair, Food and Beverage Canada
Yes, it would definitely be helpful.
I'll give you an example. In our plants, people who have that work permit are hired for low-paying positions that don't require any special skills. Yet we need forklift operators. We could train these individuals. It only takes three or four days. They could earn a little more money. As I said, these workers have the same conditions as Canadian workers. However, their work permit does not allow us to train them for another job. They have come as workers in low-paying jobs and we can't improve things for them after they arrive. It's completely ridiculous, but that's the way it is.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
In the same vein, permits are often closed and tied to a single employer. Yet employers in my constituency tell me that the various companies could plan seasonal rotations and provide jobs for workers throughout the year. They could move from one company to another as needed. For example, they could help address a major labour shortage in a specific location.
First, it could help employers better meet their workforce needs. Second, it would give employees more flexibility to get training with other companies and earn an annual salary. What are your thoughts on that?
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Groupe Bonduelle, Chief Executive Officer, Bonduelle Americas, and Co-Chair, Food and Beverage Canada
Ms. Normandin, the situation is worse than that. I have four plants in Quebec and I don't even have the right to move employees from one to another. So we are a long way from a situation where various companies could share employees. I would love to be able to have a partnership where employees could be hired at a ski resort in the winter and come back to work for me the following summer, so they would have work year-round. It's much worse than that. We're tied to farming.