Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 12th, 2021

[Daniel Vielfaure]

There are times during the year when I may need more staff in one plant and fewer in another. For example, one of my plants may have a surplus of crops, because the harvest was very good. But I can't assign my workers from another plant there to meet the needs. It's absolutely ridiculous.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much. That's all the time I had.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We will now move on to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for your presentations.

My first question is for the Canadian Horticultural Council.

Earlier, you had expressed frustrations with the difficulty that TFWs are having to begin when trying to get hold of the company the federal government has contracted out, Switch Health, to do the 10-day testing. This has resulted in their being unable to start work, and then they have to be in isolation because they are presumed to have a positive COVID test. This, of course, is problematic, given that you have a limited window of time with respect to the workers.

Has that issue been resolved by the federal government? How have they responded to these concerns?

[Elizabeth Connery]

We keep getting new techniques to interact with Switch. It has come down to their allowing some provinces to do the testing, rather than Switch. Particularly western provinces are doing this. B.C. already had their workers in quarantine. I believe Manitoba for sure, and Saskatchewan and Alberta, I believe, are all doing provincial tests and supplying the results to the federal government.

It is difficult, because their labs are in Toronto, which means we are relying in rural areas on some courier to pick up the samples and get them there on time and have them back. If you're doing it on day 10, it might take two days to get there. It's a whole, big thing.

They are working on it. There's not a satisfactory solution that I know of yet. I know that there are people sitting there waiting beyond the days, and it is very hard on these workers to stay isolated for that length of time. They've come up here to work to earn money to send home, but they're sitting essentially in their bedrooms or somewhere similar to that all day for 14 days. It's very difficult on their mental health, and the delays are very disturbing. We're trying to create a good environment for our employees, and it's very hard.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Do you have any specific proposals for the government to address this situation? This came up some time ago. This was before the committee resumed our hearing on this, during the break. Still it doesn't sound to me as though there's a satisfactory resolution to it.

Do you have any suggestions for what action the federal government can take?

[Elizabeth Connery]

It depends on what provinces want to do. Certainly the provinces that have stepped up and said they would do the tests make life easier for those of us who are the employers in those places.

There are employers who have said they are willing to hire a company to come to do the test. I think the question is a case of collating the results and releasing people from quarantine when they get a negative result, but if the government doesn't have it yet, are they allowed to actually leave their quarantine or not?

A combination of many things would probably help. I know some farms are actually hiring nurses to come to do the tests, and they are driving all the way to Toronto to drop them off. They get quick results when they do that, but it can be an awfully long drive, and the samples have to be kept in good condition during that drive.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Yes, it's not necessarily a resolution for everybody. That's certainly an ongoing issue that needs to be addressed.

With respect to the longer term, I think all of you spoke about the need for workers for your farms, for the sector.

Canada used to have an immigration program that targeted lower-skilled workers. That is now gone. Would it help if the government brought back an immigration program that targeted lower-skilled workers?

This applies, by the way, in all of the various sectors. I'm hearing from employers everywhere where there are shortages of workers. Of course, I'm setting aside the COVID situation.

Would you support the call for an immigration permanent residents program targeting lower-skilled workers so that we can have the full range of workers to fit the needs of Canada?

[Elizabeth Connery]

I think that primary ag would certainly appreciate it. There are many industries, such as dairy and beef and grains and all of those things, that need people who would come in year round, or very close to that, and a program like that would certainly help them.

When we're bringing people in for merely four to eight months, it may not be as good for us, although if it were a program that is something like what ag stream is now, whereby they could go home and come back while still on the same permit, it would certainly help.

[Kathleen Sullivan]

From a food processing standpoint, that is 100% the case. As I said at the beginning, we're short about 30,000 workers on any given day.

Temporary foreign workers are just a part of our workforce. We are short of permanent workers. There's a structural deficit, when it comes to filling our labour needs. We welcome immigrants coming into Canada, 100%.

The immigration system is, as you know, made up of a number of different streams, and there are a few pilots here and there. In Manitoba, the provincial nominee program has some ability to bring in certain occupations, such as butchers, for example, but we 100% need to really start to value the contributions that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Sullivan, but the time is up.

We will now move on to our second round of questioning. We will have four minutes each for the Conservatives and the Liberals, and two minutes for the Bloc and NDP.

We will now start with Mr. Saroya, who will have four minutes for his round of questions.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to all of the witnesses for coming to speak to us.

My first question is for Kathleen. Since back in the 1970s, I've been hearing the same thing: We can't find people to plant or to pick the fruits and vegetables and so on. You mentioned that you are short 30,000 people every single day.

How are you going to solve this issue? What could we do to help this? Give us any example, if you can, of what committees and MPs can do for you?

[Kathleen Sullivan]

I would say there are three big areas where we all should be focusing. One is skilled trades. We have a massive deficit in this country when it comes to skilled trades—things like electricians and millwrights. That affects all manufacturing sectors. I'm sure Elizabeth will tell us that it trickles down to the farm level as well. Without those workers we simply cannot expand the industries we have. They will start to contract.

The next major theme is foreign workers. We absolutely need more people to be working in our economy. Other countries are in the same position, so if we don't move quickly to start to attract these workers to Canada, we will be left out.

The third issue, of course, is automation. In food and beverage manufacturing, we absolutely should be doing more to take a look at automation and robotics. The challenge there is that Canada's food sector has a large number of mainly small and mid-sized companies. Implementing automation and robotics there—and I would imagine in primary production as well—is a very expensive proposition. Daniel even spoke to the challenges when we're looking at seasonal industries and implementing automation and robotics.

We're going to need some sort of strategy to focus on that. I think we need industry and government to really start to work together on these three themes or, frankly, there is no answer. These industries will start to contract. We will see the industries get smaller rather than grow, which is our goal.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Does anybody else want to talk on the same topic?

[Daniel Vielfaure]

As much as you're saying that the situation existed in the 1970s—and I agree—it's getting worse every year. It's getting to a point right now where it's going to break.

Honestly, there are some investments that our head office in France is challenging, not because of the value of the investment, but because they believe we cannot find the workers to make it work. Growth is challenged right now.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

On something Mr. Rajpurohit talked about with these temporary foreign workers coming to Canada for these short-term jobs, did you see if they're being abused with longer hours, with less money or no place to sleep and stuff like this? Have you or anyone else seen it from any angle?

Anybody else comment.

[Shaitan Singh Rajpurohit]

Yes, I've seen it many times, mostly in Vancouver.

I want to talk today for the small businesses—the smallest companies are family-owned businesses—and how we can replace the LMIAs by asylum seekers. I want to say that small businesses or family-owned businesses have hired asylum seekers who are qualified for the particular job or are trained by the companies to fill the places and fill the labour gap. Since they have invested in training and integrating asylum seekers in the job, getting permanent resident status for them will not only help them, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, but your time is up, Mr. Rajpurohit.

We will now move on to Ms. Dhillon, who will have four minutes for her round of questioning.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will continue with the United Refugee Council Canada.

First of all, I want to say thank you very much for the important work you do, especially here in Montreal. We're very familiar with you. Your focus is always on asylum seekers and refugees. You mentioned in your opening statement about giving status to those who have been waiting for a very long time because they're already integrated into the community at large. You also spoke about abuse that they're facing with their employers.

Can you give us some examples, please, of the kind of abusive situations that have been brought to your organization's attention?

[Shaitan Singh Rajpurohit]

I'm always being contacted by friends in Vancouver. I many friends there in houses. From multiple societies, people are saying that many of the companies are hiring people. Forty-five thousand dollars is the starting rate to provide the LMIA. After that, if they've not completed that year, they will fire that person. So it's very difficult time for those people. The companies pay minimum wage and yet they declare that they are paying $26 an hour. That is abuse, ma'am.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you.

Are these employees aware that it's possible to seek help when it comes to workplace abuse? There are several government programs to help employees in such a situation. Are you aware if they actually seek out help when it comes to this?

[Jagdeep Singh Batth, Coordinator, Process Improvement, United Refugee Council Canada]

Madam Chair, I would like to answer this question. Thank you for it.

There have been many media reports recently. There have been media interviews and investigations as well, with some of the foreign workers probably not being that aware of their rights or about the proper process. As one of our esteemed members has mentioned, the processes are complicated. If it were simplified, it would be easier, not only for the employers but for employees as well, in streamlining the entire thing.

If you allow me 30 seconds, I would like to add one more thing.

A point has been raised about the low-skilled workers. Instead of calling them “low-skilled workers”, I would call them the “workers with core skills”. Even if somebody's highly specialized, whenever they go to a new process or company, they always have to be trained so they can work on a particular process or in a particular field. I think that many of the people who have these core capabilities are already present in Canada.

If we talk about the abuse, there could be a different type of abuse, like mental or emotional abuse. If I'm working in a particular field, I don't dare to change. I think that if I change, because of my status, I may not find a good job, so I just stick to it even if I'm underemployed, or even if I'm not satisfied with my job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Sorry for interrupting, Mr. Jagdeep Singh Batth, but the time is up.

We will now move on to Madame Normandin for two minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like you to make a general comment on the state of affairs for farm workers.

Actually, this has already been addressed briefly, when we talked about what happened with Switch Health, for example. In March of last year, the pandemic was new and we had to adapt to it quickly. Now, we have the benefit of a full year of dealing with COVID-19. Do you consider the measures currently in place to be adequate?

Are there things that we could have improved? I will again refer to the possibility of extending work permits and visas, for example. If such measures had existed, could we have avoided these types of problems, given that some visa offices abroad are closed right now?

[Daniel Vielfaure]

I will go ahead and respond.

In our case, they are not farm workers, but we were allowed to keep employees longer than the original permit allowed. So there was some adjustment to the COVID-19 situation. In that regard, I have to acknowledge that efforts were made.