Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Good morning. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 116 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

I would like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Whether participating in person or by Zoom, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best as we can.

I would like to welcome a few of the visiting members today.

First, Mr. Arpan Khanna, welcome to the committee. I hope you become a permanent part of the committee. It's always great to see you.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I'm training him to replace me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Well, we'd miss you, but we'd love to have him.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

On the Liberal side, we have Mr. Chris Bittle and Mr. James Maloney.

Welcome to the committee.

Online, we have the parliamentary secretary, Mr. Maninder Sidhu, and of course Ms. Dhillon.

Welcome to both of you.

We are here to study pension transferability and access to the mandatory provident fund and delays in permanent residence and visas for Hongkongers.

Before we begin, on Thursday, November 28, we will have three witnesses on the recent reforms to the international student program in the first hour. For the second hour, we are planning to give drafting instructions to the analysts for the study on MPF. However, the written responses from IRCC, requested on Monday, November 18, may not be available for that day.

Would the committee like to give drafting instructions without these responses?

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I think we need to wait.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

We need to wait. Is everybody good with that?

Okay. Excellent. The clerk will invite the witnesses for the second hour, then.

For your information, on Monday, November 25, the minister will appear on the 2024 annual report to Parliament on immigration and also the supplementary estimates (B) for 2024-25.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), the committee will commence consideration of the request to undertake a study of the urgent issue of a passport being issued to a known convicted human smuggler with a court order issued forbidding possession of any travel documents.

We have Mr. Kmiec and then Mr. Paul Chiang.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Chair, thank you for giving me the floor.

We on the opposition side have signed this letter ordering that this meeting be done on an emergency basis because of media reports that have found a human smuggler, a convicted human smuggler, in Canada in possession of a Canadian passport despite a court order saying that he wasn't allowed to have one, and Passport Canada issued him a new passport, so I'm moving the following motion:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study on the recent media reports that a convicted human smuggler, with a court order forbidding possession of any travel documents, was found in possession of a Canadian passport, issued in 2023 after the trial, and found during an RCMP raid of his residence;

That the committee invite the following witnesses to appear:

1. For two hours each, accompanied by senior officials from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, Canada Border Services Agency, and Passport Canada:

a. Marc Miller, Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship; and

b. Dominic Leblanc, Minister of Public Safety;

2. As well as any other witnesses the committee considers necessary, in accordance with the usual practices of the committee; and

That these witness meetings take place prior to December 18, 2024.

Chair, I believe that the motion will be distributed in French and in English to all members of the committee.

I want to briefly go over what we know so far from media reports and some of the early research I've done looking at relevant pieces of legislation. There are some really serious questions to be asking if the Liberal government can't even do the basics right, which is not to give known criminals who are forbidden from having a travel document by court order a legal passport so they could use it again.

In this particular case, from the timeline I have, in 2021, this man was charged as part of a group of four. He was charged with criminal offences, i.e., importantly, trafficking and human smuggling. Then, in 2021, he had to surrender his passport. He pleaded guilty two years later during his trial.

My understanding is that he was living at home with one of those electronic bracelets on his ankle. I don't know why you would give house arrest to a human smuggler, especially in a case where his smuggling network is credibly accused of having caused the death of eight persons. I find that baffling.

In April 2023, he was issued a new passport. In February, when he pleaded guilty, presumably his passport was still valid when it was seized through court order, and the RCMP came and took possession. In September 2023, he was sentenced to 15 months.

There are a lot of questions to ask, primarily, how Passport Canada could issue a new passport to a well-known criminal with an existing court order forbidding him from having a travel document. I went through the passport application process, and there are multiple spots where he could have not disclosed that situation or Passport Canada has made a serious mistake, and the Liberal government completely failed to provide proper oversight.

My understanding is that the Canadian Police Information Centre would have received the notification that he's not supposed to have a travel document. That is relevant, because in the Canadian passport order, in paragraph 9 (1)(b), it says very clearly anyone who “stands charged in Canada with the commission of an indictable offence” and paragraph (d) says, “is subject to a term of imprisonment in Canada or is forbidden to leave Canada or the territorial jurisdiction of a Canadian court by conditions imposed with respect to” and then there's a list.

In this situation, he shouldn't have been eligible for this passport in order to be allowed to travel by the government. How could you allow someone like that to obtain such a document?

In this situation, there has been an abject failure.

Canadian citizens expect the very basics from their different levels of government such as to collect taxes from those who owe them, and at the municipal level, to pick up the garbage. Canadians expect the government to give passports to those who ask for them when they are legally allowed to have a passport, but not to give them to those who aren't supposed to have them, such as known criminals convicted of things like human trafficking.

Let's say the government comes up with some legal Criminal Code reason for why this person shouldn't have received it. At the very end, paragraph 9(1)(g) says “has been issued a passport that has not expired and has not been revoked.” This brings the question as to when the court ordered it. The court would have known when its expiry date was.

There are pictures in the media reports from this entrepreneurial reporter showing that this was a 10-year, legal, long-term passport. Did his passport expire while in the possession of the court? Was the Canadian Police Information Centre not advised of this fact? Was it not updated? Did it not have the information? This has been botched at multiple levels. There are two ministries involved. One is the passport side of it and the other is the public safety side of it, the RCMP side of it.

This is a database that is monitored and used actively by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. How could they have let this happen? How could they have let a known convicted human smuggler who traffics in people be allowed to obtain a valid Canadian passport? Why was he under house arrest, of all things? Why wasn't he in prison? An open question should be asked right now. He violated the terms of his bail. He should be behind bars. I hope he is serving actual time in a physical prison and is not out and about, especially after these media reports.

That's why we need this motion passed today, Mr. Chair. That's why we've called this meeting.

We expect all members to vote in favour of getting to the truth of how the two ministers and their departments could have failed so badly to ensure the public safety of Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Chiang.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Chair, first, let me state unequivocally that what is alleged to have occurred in this case is unacceptable. Canadians rightfully expect rigorous oversight and coordination to prevent a situation like this.

Mr. Chair, I would like to ask to suspend for a few minutes, if possible, to discuss this further with my team.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

We will suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I call the meeting back to order.

I have Mr. Chiang still on the list.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the member across for bringing forward that motion.

Mr. Chair, I would like to move a friendly amendment to Mr. Kmiec's motion to include the following: “that the study consist of no less than two meetings”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Kmiec, are you okay with that?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I am okay with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Kmiec is okay with it, so this friendly amendment is accepted.

Is there anything else you want to say, Mr. Chiang, before I go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe?

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

No, thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would just like to add a few words.

I am very pleased that this motion has been put forward. This is a shocking, disturbing and serious matter. For years, the Bloc Québécois has been asking questions in the House about the problem of human smugglers. I must admit, I'm almost jealous I did not propose this motion myself. I say that publicly.

I will obviously be supporting it.

Since we agree on the Liberal subamendment, I think we can move to a vote fairly quickly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

I still have a speaking list. I have Mr. Redekopp, then Mr. Khanna and then MP Kwan.

I will go to Mr. Redekopp now.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to quickly review this.

We have a human smuggler who pleaded guilty to smuggling someone from the U.S. into Canada in 2021, who was out on bail conditions, which means that he had an ankle bracelet. He was living at home, which is a whole other issue with the “bail not jail” system that we have in our country. However, one of his conditions was to surrender his passport and not be able to get a new one, and so he did that. The RCMP took his passport.

Obviously, when you're a human smuggler, you don't smuggle just one person, so the RCMP continued to investigate this person, and when they searched his home again, they found that he had a new passport. That's the subject of this motion that we're making today, because this is a huge failure on behalf of the NDP-Liberal government to keep Canadians safe. We have a criminal who was on conditions, was wearing an ankle bracelet, was actually told that he could not have a passport and was issued a passport by the government anyway.

It really makes me question the integrity of our passport system and our ability to contain criminals who are on conditional sentences. It gets even worse because the same man, about 15 years ago, actually spent time in jail because he showed up at Canada's border with two passports in his hands that were not even in his name, so this man had a long history of abusing passports.

It makes me wonder how Service Canada actually looks at applications when they come in. They have to fill out a form. Is it all on the honour system? Apparently, there is a database where where they are able to know if people have committed crimes, but I'm just wondering what kind of database this is. Are we talking about yellow sticky notes on the wall that remind people? How does this work exactly?

I think it's important to have this study because we really need to know how the system is working and how the government could possibly have let this happen. As well, how does it deal with criminals, and how does it interact with the court system and with the criminal system to know who's who and who is able to have a passport or not have a passport?

On Wednesday, Minister Miller did say that he would verify the story and that he'd be happy to report back to the House. I think that coming to this committee and speaking to this motion at committee would be a great way for him to report back to the House. That's why I am in support of this motion, and I hope that everybody will also support this motion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Redekopp.

Mr. Khanna, please go ahead.

[Arpan Khanna, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think this is a very serious breach in our system. It's a massive breach by the government when it comes to public safety. It's a massive breach when it comes to national security. It's a massive breach when it comes to our immigration system. It's a massive breach when it comes to our justice system.

The news that we've heard over the last few days is shocking. Something that's supposed to be so basic, a system that Canadians are supposed to have confidence in, clearly isn't working in the way it's supposed to. The Liberal government let in a convicted human smuggler who was responsible for the death of families and children, who was ordered by the courts not to have a passport and it was surrendered by a court order. All this guy had to do was apply to Service Canada to get a brand new passport issued. That is a massive breach.

It's troubling that we're seeing a pattern of this. We're seeing a pattern from this Liberal government that they're lax on the rules, that the left hand isn't talking to the right hand. That is troubling because Canadians are losing confidence in our system. If we can't do the basics right, we're in trouble.

From the reports we've seen, they had no idea how this happened. It wasn't until the RCMP went in again and raided this person's house that they discovered this passport. Service Canada had no idea what they had done, so the question is very simple. Why did this basic breach happen, something that's really so basic in nature? How many others are there like this in our country right now? This government has no idea.

We're in support of this motion to get to the bottom of this. These folks with long rap sheets, who have been ordered by courts not to have passports, should not have passports, and it shouldn't be this easy to get one. The study that we're supporting today, I think, is very important for that reason.

I look forward to having the minister and his staff come so that we can dive a bit deeper to find out where they messed up.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Khanna.

The speaking list is MP Kwan, Mr. Maloney and then Mr. Bittle.

MP Kwan, the floor is yours.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

There's no question that this situation is horrendous. How is it possible, first off, on the question around human smuggling, that this is allowed to happen, where people died?

Then we have a situation where, under the current circumstances, people are pushed further into desperation because of changing attitudes toward refugees, changing attitudes toward people with a status that has fallen out. People are desperate and, in that desperation, they turn to human smugglers. They are taken advantage of. They have their lives put in jeopardy, and some people have died. The people who benefit from it are human smugglers.

There's a question that needs to be asked: What is the government doing in facilitating or even creating an environment that pushes people into that desperate situation? We also need to examine the circumstances and the environment in which government policies and attitudes have created this desperation in the hearts and minds of those who are fleeing persecution, who are fleeing those circumstances and who are desperate enough to seek out a human smuggler. That is an important question that somehow, I'm sad to say, the Liberals are not particularly interested in and the Conservatives couldn't care less about. We're perpetually in this environment that causes people harm.

Mr. Chair, are you flagging me for something?