Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon. We are meeting in public. Welcome to meeting 117 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to remind participants of the following points: Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments must be addressed through the chair. Whether participating in person or by Zoom, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best as we can.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee at the meeting convened on October 21, 2024, the committee is commencing its briefing on the “2024 Annual Report to Parliament on Immigration”.

Also, pursuant to Standing Order 81(5) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 18, 2024, the committee is commencing its study of the supplementary estimates (B) 2024-25, votes 1b, 5b and 10b under Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

Before I welcome our witnesses, I would love to welcome two members. Arpan Khanna, MP, is becoming a regular member at this committee. Welcome.

We welcome Peter Fragiskatos to the committee for a little while. I'm sure you're going to be here for a half hour. You will enjoy it. This is probably the most disciplined committee that you will see. It's not me, but everybody here—all the members.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for today's meeting.

We have with us the Honourable Marc Miller, Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship. Accompanying him are deputy minister Dr. Harpreet Singh Kochhar; Louise Baird, senior assistant deputy minister for strategic policy; the assistant deputy minister for service delivery, Pemi Gill; the assistant deputy minister for asylum and refugee resettlement, Soyoung Park; and last but not least, chief financial officer Nathalie Manseau. Welcome.

Minister Miller is with us for the first hour, and the officials will be available to answer questions during the first and second hours.

I will keep a few minutes at the end of the second hour to report the supplementary estimates (B) to the House if the committee decides to do so.

Before I welcome the minister, Peter, you are new to the committee, but Arpan, you've been a regular. One thing in this committee is that members have the very important task of asking the questions and the minister and his associates have a duty to answer. I don't want to be in the middle, interrupting your conversation, so if someone thinks that the minister or the associates are going too long, raise your hand and I'll stop the watch. I will not take that time so that I'm not in between in your conversation and so that it goes smoothly.

With that, I welcome Minister Miller for five minutes. Please go ahead, Minister.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Minister of Immigration]

Thank you, Chair. Hopefully we won't spend the next couple of hours disproving your opening statement about how disciplined we are.

I want to first acknowledge our presence in Ottawa on the traditional and unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I am here today to discuss the work we are doing to strengthen our immigration system with the aid of the 2025–2027 immigration levels plan and obviously the supplementary estimates (B).

As you all know, immigration has shaped Canada and is still extremely important for our future. The growth, prosperity and diversity of our country rely on a well-managed immigration system. For generations now, we have opened our doors to newcomers and have welcomed their skills, innovations and contributions to strong and growing communities.

In response to the recent global pandemic and labour shortages, we implemented temporary measures to attract some of the world's best and brightest to study and work in Canada, among other things. These measures have helped us navigate a really challenging period, avoid a recession and accelerate our recovery.

Today Canada's economy has evolved. While newcomers remain essential to our economy and are filling critical roles in health care, trades and other sectors, we do recognize the need to pause population growth and return it to prepandemic levels. That is why we've taken a comprehensive approach to protecting the integrity of our immigration system and ensuring sustainable growth.

For the first time, the immigration levels plan includes targets for temporary residents, including foreign students and temporary foreign workers, as well as permanent resident targets. This approach takes economic needs into consideration and alleviates the current pressures on housing, infrastructure and, obviously, social services.

That's why we're adjusting our permanent resident targets to 395,000 in 2025, a decrease of 105,000, and then to 380,000 in 2026 and 365,000 in 2027. This levels plan builds on recently announced reforms. For international students, we've introduced annual caps, required verification letters of acceptance and tightened access to postgraduate work permits.

These measures are already showing results, with international student numbers down by 43% from 2023 and with high-demand areas like Vancouver and Toronto beginning to see reductions in rental prices. This is important.

Our new plan prioritizes people with Canadian experience. We're aiming for over 40% of new permanent residents to come from temporary residents already contributing and integrating to Canada. This in-Canada focus aligns with labour market needs while easing pressures facing Canadians.

The revised targets are expected to reduce the housing supply gap by about 670,000 units by the end of 2027, and, if you rely on the more recently released PBO report, to reduce housing supply gaps by half.

Although Canada's economic needs are significant, we are still attached to our humanitarian tradition of assisting some of the most vulnerable people in the world. That will continue.

We also remain determined to reunite families by allocating 24% of admissions to permanent residence in 2025, in accordance with our immigration plan.

We will obviously continue our efforts to enhance the vitality of francophone communities outside Quebec. The target for French-speaking permanent residents will be 8.5% of total admissions in 2025, which represents an increase from 3% to 8.5% in just a few years. The target will be 9.5% in 2026 and 10% in 2027.

I want Canadians to know that we're listening. We understand the challenges our country faces and we're addressing them. Our goal is to make immigration work for everyone, ensuring that newcomers and Canadians alike can access quality jobs, housing and the community supports they need.

With regard to the supplementary estimates, I would like to note the main measures that were presented last week.

First, we know that Quebec is facing disproportionate pressure to welcome asylum claimants, which is why we have allocated $750 million to reimburse Quebec. The supplementary estimates (B) provide for 91% of that amount. It is essential that it be adopted.

Second, through the interim housing assistance plan, we're reimbursing provinces, territories and municipalities for providing housing to asylum seekers, especially during the winter months.

Third, through the interim federal health benefit program, we're providing necessary health care to refugees and asylum seekers until they are eligible for provincial or territorial coverage.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will be happy to answer questions from members of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Minister. That was perfect timing.

Now we will go to the honourable members. We will start with honourable member Kmiec for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, your department tabled documents with Parliament that show that 4.9 million visas are going to expire between September 2024 and December 2025. How will we know how many of those wind up leaving?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

As you noted, MP Kmiec, when people come here, in many of their visa documents, they undertake to leave. As part of the levels plan, there will be some visas that are temporary in nature that will not be renewed, and those people will be expected to leave, and that is simply a fact. We'll have to monitor that carefully.

There are many measures within our department to monitor these things, but it's one that—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Minister, I'm asking about the how.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

—given the volume in question—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

How will you—

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

—we'll have to be very careful in supervising.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

One second, Mr. Kmiec. I've stopped the watch. If you'd let him finish, I would appreciate that.

Minister, have you finished your remarks?

You have. Okay.

Honourable Member Kmiec, go ahead, please.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Minister, I wasn't asking about whether they will leave or not: I was asking about how you will ensure that a person whose visa has expired will leave.

We know that just on study permits, 766,000 are expiring by the end of December 2025. How will your department ensure that at the end of those study permit periods, those persons will leave?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Again, there are many ways that people leave the country, Tom. The vast majority leave voluntarily, and that's what's expected.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Explain those ways. How you will ensure it?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

We work with our partners, including the CBSA, to investigate, obviously, and prosecute those who violate immigration law. If someone refuses to leave, they're in violation of the law. The CBSA, after due process, has the legal obligation to remove people.

Again, this isn't something that is taken lightly. In the vast majority of cases, those people who come here temporarily and who do not have the right to stay will in fact leave.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

My next question is this, then.

Your plan calls for a cap on international students—485,000 in 2024 and 437,000 in 2025. There have been adjustments to those. Obviously, there's a discrepancy between the two.

How many do you project will leave the country at the end of December 2025. Will it be all 766,000? What's the proportion? What are the forecasts by the department?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

You'll have to be clear on that. Between what number and what other number is the discrepancy?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It's between the number of people who will be allowed into the country and then the number of people who will be on a study permit that's expiring. Of those whose permits are expiring at the end of December 2025, how many of them will actually leave? Are you saying that 100% will be expected to leave, or will you be sending the CBSA to chase all 766,000?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

You know that this is not what happens. A number of things occur.

Some people actually get renewals. Some people get postgraduate work permits and stay a longer period.

We do work with the CBSA to monitor these things. When Statistics Canada reports on these, they take into account a whole variety of factors in estimating how many people are here and how many people have left.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

At the end of this year, 2024, how many international students do you expect to leave, and how many have left so far when their study permits expired?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

How many have left as of...?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

So far.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Do you mean as of today? We don't have that number.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

What about as of October 1? Can you provide that to the committee?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I don't know. We could look into it.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Minister, how can you not know? It's in the immigration levels plan. There are a bunch of charts, starting on page 22, about temporary resident immigration to Canada and persons who are in the country. It's in the immigration levels plan. It's in there. How can you not know what that number would be?

There was an Order Paper question. These government documents were signed by your parliamentary secretary and tabled with Parliament. That has the numbers. These are supposed to be the expiring study permits—in December, 84,642; in November, 36,130; in October, 10,182; and the month before, 127,348.

How many of those people are still in the country? How many have received the renewal? How many of them have the CBSA now looking at them?