Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I know, but you falsely represent yourself as the only Quebec voice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Excuse me, Minister.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you know how disciplined we all are. I have stopped the clock. One person must speak at a time, because otherwise it's hard on the interpreters. Because the clock is stopped, I will give the minister the floor.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I just want to finish what I was saying, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, I think you Bloc Québécois members falsely represent yourselves as the only Quebec voice in Parliament. It's not true. Many Liberal members are very effective spokespersons too.

It's a matter of volume. I've said at every opportunity that volume has an impact on affordability and that we have to frame the problem fairly. What I sometimes accuse certain other parties of doing is exaggerating the scope and at times attributing all wrongs to immigrants, which is totally false.

I know you don't agree with me on that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Many analysts have noted that the Bloc Québécois is the party that adopted the most responsible tone on immigration before the parliamentary summer break this past spring, but I didn't hear you congratulate me on that.

In 2022, however, I proposed an idea that a succession of ministers and deputy ministers in the Department of Citizenship and Immigration thought was good, and that was the emergency mechanism in the event of an international crisis. The idea would be to implement a permanent emergency mechanism within the department. We were told that you were working on the idea, which was proposed by the Bloc Québécois.

Are you still working on it? If so, can we expect an announcement soon?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

In the words of the dean of Parliament, Louis Plamondon of the Bloc Québécois, if it's affection you need, get yourself a dog. Mine's a lab.

However, I'm not opposed to congratulating you, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, because you're mainly responsible in your public statements.

Pardon me, but what's your question?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

My question concerns the implementation of an emergency mechanism in your department.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

We're working on an official mechanism, but it hasn't made its way to cabinet yet. I'd say we're in the process of finalizing it. There have been some crises recently—and lord knows there are many around the world—and we've learned that we at the department need to react in a certain way and to identify measures that need to be taken in emergencies in order to provide a quick response.

We're obviously learning lessons from our intervention in Sudan and Gaza. That's important for me, and I know it is for you too. So the wheels are in motion, and I intend to implement that emergency mechanism.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much.

Now we will go to MP Kwan for six minutes.

MP Kwan, please go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and the officials for being here today.

Speaking on the levels plan, Minister, the about-face that the government took was shocking, to be honest with you. In fact, there are a number of migrant workers who are here today, and they responded to your announcement. An open letter signed by some 185 organizations or individuals was sent in response to the levels plan and refuting the arguments that the government had put forward in calling for a change of approach.

As well, the Migrant Rights Network folks have put on social media a point-by-point response to the Prime Minister's shameful video. I'll highlight some of the points here, and I'd like to seek your response.

They say that migrants are not disposable economic units. Immigrants are not taps to be turned on and turned off; they are people with rights, families, dreams and potential who are promised equal rights and fairness, and Canada is uprooting millions of people who have built a life here.

They further say that migrants aren't a drain on the economy; they're adding to it and underwriting the government's public services that they pay into but cannot access.

International students alone contributed $31 billion to Canada's GDP in 2022, and migrants fill critical roles in health care, agriculture and technology, forming the backbone of many sectors.

They noted also—and this is common knowledge—that since at least 2008, the Conservatives and Liberals have been bringing more temporary migrants than permanent residents, and this is an intentional shift to reduce people's rights and to make migrants more vulnerable. Even though the government acknowledges exploitation, they are punishing those who are being exploited, Minister.

What is really needed is guaranteed permanent status for all, reining in corporate interests that are profiteering off basic needs, and for the government to truly invest in housing, health care and infrastructure for all residents of the country once and for all and to not blame migrant workers.

What's your response to them?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

There are a lot of statements in there that I wouldn't disagree with.

I agree with the fact that there has been increased volume that has impacted people in this country, fairly or unfairly, and it's something that I think we've almost taken for granted. The reality with people who are here temporarily is that “temporarily” has to mean something; it's not an automatic guarantee to become a permanent resident. I think that to some extent, a lot of institutions have entertained explicitly or implicitly a sense of false hope that people will immediately become a Canadian citizen.

My heart does go out to those who have had that false hope entertained, but the reality is that not everyone can stay here. Every time I've tried to put a measure in place to make sure that we are reining in some of the unsustainable volumes in areas of my department that have perhaps gotten overheated, it's been with an effort make sure that we're focusing on people who are already here.

It is not a right to become a permanent resident. It is not a right to become a Canadian citizen. Otherwise, you dilute the value of it, and that's something that I firmly believe in. At the same time, it doesn't mean that you treat people unfairly, and those who have undertaken in their own visas to leave at the end of this period obviously have to respect that.

There are nuances in here. It is why I made sure in this plan that a good 40% of the plan was focused on in-Canada draws so that we are bringing in the skilled people that the country needs. While we make sure that those who do have responsibility—including the federal government, but also provincial governments that go out and pick and choose and have their own programs of bringing people in—focus on the domestic pool of often young talent that's here, making the workforce younger.

It is challenging, but it's something that is not couched in absolutes. We have to make sure that we are flexible and make sure that we are reducing the volumes in a fair, managed and controlled way. I think fundamentally that the levels plan we put forward this year is reasonable and shows to Canadians that we've been listening.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Actually, Minister, you are one of those people who gave people false hope about the regularization program.

This supposedly broad regularization program came to be not that. In fact, the levels plan—I don't know if it's some sort of joke—in 2015 calls for 50 people to be regularized. What sort of joke is that?

The truth of the matter is that you talk about providing provinces and territories with the ability to make their decisions, but in your plan, you're actually reducing provincial nominees, as an example.

Successive Liberal and Conservative governments knew that, and they continued to increase migrant workers with temporary status while reducing permanent resident status. This was not an accident. At the same time, successive governments have allowed for institutions to use international students as a cash cow. Now you have a housing crisis, and you blame them as though they somehow created the housing price crisis when in fact successive governments abdicated their responsibility and relied entirely on the private sector to provide the housing they needed.

That is the reality. When are you going to take responsibility and do what is right?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I think you meant 2025, not 2015.

The reality is that for the provincial nominee program, for example, provinces have been coming to me and begging for more spaces, but then turning around and blaming us for immigration.

I think that to some extent we as a society have become addicted to temporary fixes. We owe it to Canadians to rein them in, and this is a plan and a policy that I put into place. When it came, for example, to half of the temporary residents who are in Canada, including international students and the postgraduate permits they get, it's a plan to reduce that number in a responsible way, and we've seen the impacts that's had on rental prices. We've seen the pressure on the economy easing.

That's an important reality. We cannot have unlimited volume without losing the value of immigration. The levels we put forward this year are still ambitious and they still plan for a growing economy, but everyone doesn't have the right to bring in whoever they want whenever they want.

You're right that my job is much more than simply stamping a passport at the border: It involves engaging with community members, provinces and territories to look at their volumes and work with them.

I think provinces, frankly, have been irresponsible in the immigration sphere. It's why we cut their allotments in half, with the idea that we would work with them if they were willing to do their fair share in taking asylum seekers in provinces that aren't Quebec and Ontario.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Have you actually done an analysis of what the economic impact would be with this levels plan in terms of the reduction of the number of people who are needed for various industries, and what the implications are for institutions? Have you done an economic analysis of your plan? If yes, will you table it?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Is there a separate, discrete study that's been done by our department?

There are studies that were done in the context of preparing the levels plans. I've read a number of studies about the impacts, and in some cases, there will be some pain. It's an important adjustment for society—for example, for institutions that have unfairly relied on international students to bolster their own balance sheets.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'll just note that there was $31 billion in Canada's GDP from international students alone, and that's based on the 2022 numbers.

I'm talking about the IRCC's analysis. It's your own department. Have you done one, and will you table it?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

My question for you—and for the institutions, perhaps, that you're making yourself a voice for—is this: Who's going to pay for all of the asylum claims that come out of those institutions as a result of people not being able to get their postgraduate permits and not leaving the country? Are those institutions paying for it?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Is your approach now to shut the border?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much. Your time is up.

We'll go to—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

If it is, tell the United Nations that Canada has changed positions. You don't get to have it both ways.

I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I'm sorry, MP Kwan. We gave you enough time. It has to be fair for everyone.

MP Khanna, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Arpan Khanna, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, a few weeks ago, the Prime Minister put out a great video or propaganda piece in which he was trying to outline his future plans. He mentioned “bad actors”.

It's been about two weeks since that video has come out. Can you elaborate on who those bad actors are?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

There are, as you know—because you're familiar with some of them, MP Khanna—immigration consultants who do not act properly and are giving false advice to people and the false hope of being able to stay here. There are institutions, for example, that are relying on international students and are not providing the proper education and making false promises about prospective employment.

In the labour market impact assessment world, which I know you're familiar with, there's a lot of money exchanging hands. Labour market impact assessment shouldn't cost anything.

There are a lot of people responsible here. It isn't simply about people who committed fraud; it's also about the ecosystem that's been created, which has been an incentive. When it comes to international students, it may be a $31-billion industry that is chasing short-term gain with a lot of long-term pain, and I mentioned that earlier with respect to what asylum seekers would cost coming out of an international student system that was supposed to breed excellence, not asylum claims.

[Arpan Khanna, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

Are you missing anyone off that list? I know it's been a while, but is there anyone you're missing who should be considered a bad actor?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I know you have your view on it. Why don't you share it?

[Arpan Khanna, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Well, it's a simple question. Since 2015, who's been in charge of a federal government that increased temporary foreign worker permits by 154%?