Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

You outline a number of recommendations for the Government of Ontario in that article. Before I address them specifically, I would like to ask, do you have any indication that the province is acting on the areas of concern that you have identified there?

[André Côté]

First, we've been in some dialogue with the Ontario Ministry of Colleges and Universities. Also, I think that in terms of some of their public announcements, they have come out and said that they're going to be tightening the screws on public-private college partnerships, which received a lot of attention.

They have signalled that they're going to seek to make some changes, but what we get into in the article is that oversight of DLIs, for example, is a provincial responsibility, by and large, or it should be. My co-author on this work that we're going to put out—he was an ADM in the Ontario government that oversaw the international student program—likes to call the DLI policy the “lobster trap”, where basically once an institution was approved as a DLI, there was very little oversight beyond. We outlined some recommendations for provinces to beef up oversight of DLIs.

You might have other questions, so maybe I'll pause there.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Yes, because giving an indication is a different thing, but has the Government of Ontario started acting on any of those recommendations? Whether it is DLIs or any others, have they started acting?

[André Côté]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

You identified the need to improve the designated learning institutions program. Could you outline the shortcomings with this program in Ontario and how you think the province can improve it?

[André Côté]

Sure.

It's thinking about quality assurance for designated learning institutions and how it is tracked and reported. There are a whole bunch of mechanisms. It includes recruitment practices. We've seen some major challenges on how to put in place firmer standards and safeguards around overseas recruitment.

In terms of the actual student experience on the ground here in Canada, it's how provincial governments are overseeing DLIs to ensure that international students are having a satisfactory experience and are treated well.

Student support is a big one. Obviously, there's been a big focus on housing, but also around employment. Those have been big issues. There are academic supports and a variety of other factors.

With some of the work we've done with international students, it is a major life leap to head to an entirely different country and seek to pursue your education and potentially your life in this place. We haven't necessarily done enough to ensure that our institutions are providing the supports and safeguards for those students while they're here.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

In that article you also address the issue of the third party recruiters. They're usually overseas. They make many misleading or false promises to recruit international students to Ontario institutions.

Given issues of borders and jurisdiction, what could provincial and federal governments do to address these issues? How can we control that?

[André Côté]

It's a good question.

There are examples from various jurisdictions of codes of practice.

One aspect is anecdotal, but I think there's been enough evidence of this. We've heard that recruiters—it won't just be third party recruiters—have expressed commitments to students that becoming an international student in Canada would put them on this pathway to citizenship. It's falsely presenting the immigration pathway opportunity. There could certainly be beefed-up requirements in terms of ensuring that recruiters are singing from the same song sheet as they're out engaging with students.

I'm sure other witnesses might have some thoughts on this as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Madam Zahid.

We will go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

I really appreciated my colleague Mr. Kmiec's questions. I understand that none of you were consulted before these measures were put in place by the federal government. I think that's important to note.

Mr. Jacob, in your presentation, you talked about pan-Canadian measures, and you may be here to analyze or propose certain measures. However, isn't it dangerous to propose a pan-Canadian measure that wouldn't necessarily take into account the unique characteristics of certain regions or provinces? What is your opinion on that?

[Jean Daniel Jacob]

I wasn't necessarily talking about pan-Canadian measures. I was trying to explain the impact of the decision on nursing schools across Canada and their programs.

When you look at the data, it's clear that there are variations across different universities in different regions. I would probably say that we don't need pan-Canadian measures. It would be better to take the needs of each province into account.

For example, we might find that francophones in Quebec have different needs, as would anglophones in the province. We'd have to think about what to do in that case.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Earlier this year, the minister announced measures relating to open work permits for students' spouses. He changed it so that only graduate students and students in law and medicine were eligible, because he wanted to keep the best and the brightest. He later retracted that. However, nurses from abroad often came with their spouse and even their children.

Isn't that an example of a pan-Canadian measure that targeted certain Ontario colleges but had a negative impact on all provinces?

[Jean Daniel Jacob]

Yes, that would be a negative impact.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I would like to discuss a subject that ambassadors of African countries raised.

I've spoken to ambassadors from countries such as Morocco and Ivory Coast. They say we should be careful about recruiting a lot of nurses from Africa because that can impact the well-being of their own population. As we know, there are nursing shortages in those countries. Is that an ethical problem that should be brought to the fore and addressed?

[Jean Daniel Jacob]

Yes, absolutely.

There are a number of factors to consider. It's important to know that people are recruited to enrol in practice training programs, so they aren't necessarily nurses in their home country. That said, we have to pay attention to recruitment pools and local capacity in those countries.

This is about recruitment and ethical considerations in other countries. We can't take all the resources from other countries. I think that needs to be taken into consideration as well. We have to strike a balance between foreign recruitment and local capacity in those countries.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

Mr. Patel, once again, I enjoyed your presentation.

As of November 1, 2024, graduates from programs at public colleges will remain eligible for a post-graduation work permit if they graduate from a field of study linked to occupations in long-term shortage. According to La Presse, such a measure would spell the end of many public college programs. The government says its measure will improve alignment between international students and immigration and labour market needs.

Do you agree with the government's approach to the postgraduate work permit measure?

[Ajay Patel]

I do not agree with the postgraduate work reforms as they currently stand because they don't necessarily line up with the labour market needs of the particular regions, and they have unintended impacts on local rural economies. For example, in the tourism sector, we have a number of major games happening here in Vancouver. We need to make sure we have enough people to serve that need. We know that the need is not going to be filled by our domestic students alone. We need to have immigrants or international students fill that labour market need. That's just one specific example. I would love to have that reconsideration.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Patel, I want to ask you the same question I asked Mr. Jacob about pan-Canadian measures, because you mentioned it in your presentation. As you said, the federal government should make a point of consulting the provinces and all the stakeholders.

In your opinion, when a Canada-wide measure is put forward, to what extent should it be adapted to different jurisdictions where it applies?

[Ajay Patel]

Yes, I believe that we need to take into account the specific regional needs. In British Columbia specifically, I can speak to the fact that the provincial government has been proactive with the public institutions here around tuition transparency, student support, a 30% cap on international students and a code of practice for third party recruiters. Those are just some examples of what the provincial government has put into policy on public post-secondary. I think there needs to be more consultation directly with the stakeholders involved.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to MP Kwan for six minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their presentations.

I want to get a bit into the notion that the government did no consultation with any of you. To that point, with respect to the cap, we're talking about what the implications are for Canada on the whole but also for different regions and, then, of course, the specific sectors in terms of the labour needs.

My first question is for Mr. Jacob.

On the point of the health care sector, do you have any information or data on what your projection is for Canada's need in the health care sector to meet the labour demands?

[Jean Daniel Jacob]

Do you mean in terms of the nursing workforce? I would be able to get you those numbers. What I shared with you were mostly from the education sector—I represent, mostly, the educational institutions—but, of course, it is to meet the growing shortage. We know that the shortage has been there for quite some time, and we've been trying to catch up, but I can definitely get you some specific numbers if you'd like.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Yes, if you could do that, that would be very useful.

One of the questions I have for the minister, of course, is this: Have they actually done a full economic analysis of the implications for Canada on the whole and have they done an analysis of the labour demands? If you have any information related to that, that would be very useful.

Can I ask the same question of Mr. Patel?

[Ajay Patel]

Thank you.

No, in B.C., we have a labour market outlook that's put out by our own provincial government. It's a decade outlook that shows you what jobs can be filled by Canadian or permanent residents or by migration within Canada, and then what jobs are going to have to be filled by those outside of Canada. That is issued annually. I can certainly forward that to the committee. Based on what I can determine as the analysis of the postgrad work permit eligibility, that was not considered in this context.