Evidence of meeting #119 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Okay.
If that's the case, you have the floor, MP Kwan. Please continue.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I know that you were just trying to facilitate a process, and I understood that the process for Monday was that we would get all these officials here, but then, upon your clarification, that clearly is not the case. I think there's more work that needs to be done to bring them here.
Back to the amendment and the motion around the U.S. border, before all this happened and before the vote, I was talking about what had happened in the previous administration. I highlighted the example of Mr. Seidu Mohammed and his situation. I noted that I have had private conversations on many occasions now with Mr. Seidu Mohammed, by the way, about his experiences and what they meant for him.
I'm happy to report to the committee that, in my most recent meeting with him, I learned that he's now not only working, but he's also volunteering, coaching young people in soccer. That's his profession. He was a professional soccer player before he came to Canada. Not only is he working, he's also volunteering in support of the community coaching young people soccer. Then, of course, he's trying to reach out to those who are also refugees to make sure that their engagement in the community is supported.
I just think this is really important to note. Right now we're in an environment where people talk about immigrants, migrants and refugees as though they're just a drain on our society, that they're no good and we have to close the borders to them. People say that we need to kick them out, that we need to deport them, that we need to blame them for all the problems that the government has created such as the housing crisis and so on. When people come to Canada, not only do they contribute to Canada, they contribute to their community both economically and socially, and they volunteer.
On other stories of people experiencing persecution and the desperation that they're faced with, what do they do? There was another heart-wrenching situation. On February 8, 2017, we heard the heartbreaking story of the two-year-old making the trip from Minnesota into Manitoba as part of a group of over 20 individuals. It was reported in the media that, at that time, the temperature was -20°C. You can imagine how cold and frigid that weather is.
The family, the people who were trying to get to safety, were tired making this long trek, and they were ill-equipped. The child particularly was finding the entire journey unbearable. It was reported that the child said to the mother, “Mom, I want to die, you can go in the Canada. I want to die in the snow, you can go, mom, in the Canada.” That's from the mouth of a child who was on a trek to make it to safety.
I need committee members to take that in for a minute and to understand what that means. When we talk about border security, when we talk about heightening all of this, what does it mean for the people who are faced with persecution. What are the implications for them? What do they have to go through to try to get to safety? If you were the mother of a child who you know is being persecuted in a country where you're not welcome and that you may well be deported back to where you had escaped the violence, would you not do everything you could to protect your child and get your child to safety? I would in a heartbeat. I know I would. I would walk through hot coals to try to bring my family to safety.
That's what these individuals are doing. In their instance, they walked through the snow in -20°C weather. I'm not a good person in cold weather. If it's 0°, I think I'm going to die, and I'm wearing a giant parka with snow boots and everything.
You can imagine being out in the extreme cold for an extended period of time if you're ill-equipped. Even if you have snow boots, if you're trekking through the snow, it will get wet, and your feet will get cold. If you're small, if you're a child, your ability to retain heat is further minimized. That is the reality people are faced with.
I really hope that we don't become a country that forces people into such desperation, but that's what we're doing. That's what's happening with the Safe Third Country Agreement. That's what happened in the first round with the Trump administration. You can imagine how that will escalate in this second round.
On February 22, 2017, there was another story. It was the story of Naimo Ahmed, which was reported by the CBC.
Ahmed, at the time, was 23 and is part of a minority group originally from southern Somalia. She was set to be married in July at that time, but members of her community were against the union because her would-be husband was not a member of her group. On the day of her wedding, a group of armed individuals came to her mother's house and murdered her mother, her husband and other members of her family. Ahmed spent her wedding day and many following fleeing and hoping to rebuild her life in safety.
After travelling from Somalia through Ecuador and Colombia to Costa Rica, she eventually made her way to Texas, where she was detained and then deported to Minneapolis to await her asylum hearing. Due to the fear of the Trump administration's discriminatory policies toward people like her from Somalia, Ahmed believed she had no choice but to make the trip to Canada instead.
She stated, “I am Black; I am Somali; I am a Muslim—the three things the president doesn't like. To him, I am a terrorist. But I am not. I don't want to harm anyone; that's the last thing I want to do. All I am looking for is protection.” Those were the circumstances she found herself in and the reason she needed to get to a safe country. It's why the United States, for her, is not a safe country.
These are just some of the people who feel they had no choice. These are just some examples—not all of them—where they felt they had to make that journey, a dangerous journey. It's not like it's a walk in the park. It's not like a casual evening stroll or anything like that.
They have to make this dangerous journey from the United States to Canada because they don't feel that they can be safe in the United States. They don't feel that they can have a fair chance at a hearing to obtain asylum and safety because they don't feel that they belong. They don't feel that they're welcome. They fear that in that process they would be deported back to their country of origin.
Can you imagine if this woman who, on her wedding day, saw people come to her home and murder her family and newly wedded husband before her eyes, then had to entertain the prospect that she might be sent back to that country? Can you imagine what would happen to her, what that would be like, Mr. Chair?
I can't imagine it. The fear in her heart, the anxiety that she feels, the desperation. Honestly, it's desperation. Either you get sent back and get killed in a violent way, or you make a dangerous journey for the chance that you might have a shot to live in safety and have protection.
That's all that she was seeking. She's not a terrorist. She's not trying to kill anyone.
Isn't that what humanity is about when we see something like that? Isn't that what we should be trying to do to be supportive of each other?
During that period, in addition to the political and social upheaval that continues in Somalia, which had caused countless Somalis to flee, Somalia was facing a severe drought. In addition to the potential violence, there was another challenge that not just she but all Somalis would be faced with, which was the severe drought.
The UN estimated that 363,000 children were acutely malnourished at that time, with 270,000 more at risk. That was in 2017. They further stated that there was only a two-month window to avert a drought catastrophe. That was the reality.
We need to be very clear when we're talking about the individuals abandoning their claims in the United States to come to Canada. They have already fled serious and, in many cases, life-threatening situations in the hope that they could find safety. Under those circumstances, their fears that they would not have access to fair and just hearings or procedures are not unfounded in the face of what you saw in the United States with the Trump administration, with his travel ban and with his spread of hatred towards those folks.
On January 30, 2017, Amnesty International wrote an open letter to the then minister of immigration, Minister Hussen, as well as to the Prime Minister and to Minister Freeland. They urged the Canadian government to “immediately rescind the designation of the United States” as a safe third country.
In that letter, Amnesty International quite clearly states:
What has become clear is that all of the developments involve dramatic measures that blatantly violate numerous international refugee and human rights legal obligations, including under the 1951 Refugee Convention and its 1967 Protocol, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention against Torture.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Chair, I have a point of order.
Since we're approaching one hour on the clock, I just want to make sure I put on the record that you do not have consent to adjourn the meeting.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
As I was saying, Amnesty International stated this clearly in their letter, which continues:
Most directly, crucial principles with respect to non-discrimination, non-refoulement, arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, fair trials and the rights of children have already been infringed.
We are strongly of the view that in this context Canada cannot wait to see how things continue to develop in the days and weeks to come.
While the original discriminatory executive orders that the letter responded to were struck down by the courts, Amnesty had the foresight to know it was unlikely that those would be the only attempts the Trump administration would pursue. At the time, they stated, “There is every reason to believe that there may be further changes, including through additional Executive Orders.”
We know that some of the original discriminatory executive orders have remained in force. We know that additional anti-immigrant executive orders have been signed, and we know that an additional travel ban had been attempted. Over that period, we also know that irregular border crossings from the United States into Canada have sharply increased. Amnesty International took an observational fact-finding mission at the Canada-U.S. border in Manitoba.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Ms. Kwan, I know you have lots to say, but it's past one o'clock. I have no choice but to suspend the meeting until Monday.
[The meeting was suspended at 1:01 p.m., Thursday, December 5]
[The meeting resumed at 4:01 p.m., Monday, December 9]
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
I call the meeting to order. We are meeting in public. Welcome to the continuation of meeting number 119 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to remind all participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Whether participating in person or by Zoom, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best as we can.
We are discussing the amendment by Mr. Chiang to the motion by Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. At the time of the suspension on Monday, December 2 and on Thursday, December 5, MP Kwan had the floor. The following were on the list to debate the amendments: after MP Kwan, it's MP Dzerowicz, for whom Ms. Kayabaga will take over, and MP Kmiec.
With that, MP Kwan, you have the floor.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Before I go into comments, I'm wondering whether or not the committee could get a quick update with respect to the request for the RCMP and CBSA to appear before the committee. You had informed us, Mr. Chair, that they had declined the invitation, and that our committee's wish was to go back to indicate that we would like to extend the invitation again, and that, if they were to decline it, we would then take further action either to compel them to come to committee or to subpoena them.
In addition, I'm wondering if you have any updates for us with respect to the ministers who declined to come to the committee on this very important question.
Could we get a quick update before I get into it?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you, MP Kwan. That's an excellent question. Because you had the floor, I wanted to tell the honourable members that RCMP, CBSA, Public Safety, the passport program and IRCC have all agreed to come to the committee.
As for the ministers, they will not be able to appear in December. Basically, they will not be able to come before the adjournment of Parliament. It will be afterwards.
That answers MP Kwan's question.
MP Kwan, the floor is yours.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I'm sorry. Perhaps I could just further ask a follow-up question on that. Did CBSA and RCMP indicate what date they would be available?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
That is not the question. They have said that they are willing to come forward, so I'm sure once we are done with the committee business and are in a position to bring them in, they will be able to come.
Mr. Clerk, do you have anything else to add?
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
For the ministers, you indicated that they would not be able to attend before the end of December. Was there any indication that they would be available in the new year? Did they give you any dates?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
All we heard is that they would not be able to come to the meeting until after the adjournment in December, so I'm not sure. I'm sure when we come back at the end of January, we'll send an invitation again and see what their response is. I or the clerk will be able to get back to honourable members.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I see. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I guess we'll wait to see about the ministers' availability in the new year. I'm glad to hear that a further invitation will be extended to them. Maybe there's some ability to coordinate this effort with CBSA, IRCC and the RCMP. I think they all need to be here as the matter is important, and there are lots of questions from committee members.
On that note—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
They already said they will come, MP Kwan.
So that it's clear to every member, I can say it one more time. All of these officials I mentioned—the RCMP, CBSA, Public Safety, the passport program and IRCC—are willing to come, and they will come.
Thank you.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
That's good to know. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'll resume from where I left off last time at the committee. I was just about to go into the work of Amnesty International. They undertook an observational fact-finding mission at the Canada-U.S. border in Manitoba.
At that time, with the first Trump administration, which brought in the travel ban and all of their anti-immigration, anti-Muslim and anti-migrant worker policies, two researchers were sent to the border crossing to interview refugee claimants who had recently made the dangerous journey in frigid temperatures in order to bypass the Safe Third Country Agreement and be eligible to make an asylum claim in Canada.
The reason people had to do that was they were being forced to cross at irregular crossings. On crossing at irregular crossings, I know that some people, including the Prime Minister at one point, called it illegal, when in fact it isn't. I just want to make that clear as well, Mr. Chair.
People were trying to seek safety and, as a result of the Safe Third Country Agreement, they were—
Conservative
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the Safe Third Country Agreement back in place, is crossing at non-controlled borders now considered legal?
Liberal
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
No, actually, it's a common mistake that people make. People sometimes purposely make those errors so as to gaslight asylum seekers who are needing to get to safety. When people cross at irregular border crossings—
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, there's no gaslighting going on here. This is a routine question.
Thank you very much.