Evidence of meeting #119 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean Daniel Jacob  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing
André Côté  Director, Policy and Research, The Dais at Toronto Metropolitan University
Ajay Patel  President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College
Tiffany MacLennan  Senior Research Associate, Higher Education Strategy Associates
Dilson Rassier  Provost and Vice-President, Academic, Simon Fraser University
Kamaljit Lehal  Chair, National Immigration Section, The Canadian Bar Association
Wei William Tao  Canadian Immigration and Refugee Lawyer and Member, The Canadian Bar Association
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Rémi Bourgault

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

I call the meeting to order. We are meeting in public. Welcome to meeting number 119 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Whether participating in person or by Zoom, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee at the meeting convened on October 21, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of the recent reforms to the international student program.

MP Dzerowicz, welcome to the committee. I know you're very passionate about immigration and chairing the Liberal caucus on immigration, so welcome.

On behalf of the committee members, I would like to welcome the witnesses for today's meeting.

From the Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing, we have with us, Jean Daniel Jacob. Welcome, Mr. Jacob.

From the Dais at Toronto Metropolitan University, we have by video conference the director of policy and research, Mr. André Côté. Welcome.

Finally, from my own part of Canada, from Vancouver Community College, we have president and chief executive officer, Mr. Ajay Patel. Mr. Patel, welcome to the committee.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with the rounds of questions.

I want to remind all honourable members that any honourable member who's asking questions and feels that the witness is going too long is to raise the hand. I will stop the clock, and I will start it again once the honourable member starts to speak.

I would also request of the witnesses to keep an eye on the honourable member who's asking questions. When the hand is raised, that is a signal to wrap up. I don't want to be interrupting between the conversations because I will be taking more time from the members if I need to intervene. That works very well with this committee.

Now I would like to welcome Mr. Jacob.

You have five minutes for your opening statements. Please go ahead.

Jean Daniel Jacob Executive Director, Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing

Good afternoon, everyone.

Good afternoon. My name is Jean Daniel Jacob. I'm the executive director of the Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing. I am new in the position. I was appointed at the beginning of November. My previous role was as the director of the school of nursing at the University of Ottawa. While I will provide a pan-Canadian perspective on this issue, I also have some hands-on experience related to the admission of international students in nursing programs.

For context, the Canadian Association of Schools of Nursing, or CASN, is a national voluntary association that is located on the unceded territory of the Algonquin people. It represents baccalaureate and graduate education programs in nursing. These are entry-to-practice programs for registered nurses and nurse practitioners as well as programs that result in master's and Ph.D.s in nursing.

The organization's mission is to support the delivery of high-quality nursing education through accreditation of schools and their respective nursing programs; the creation of standards, resources and continuing education that promote excellence in teaching; and representing nursing education nationally, which is why I am before you today.

International students make up a relatively small percentage of enrolment in nursing programs. The most recent data we have comes from Statistics Canada prior to the pandemic. Around 2.6% to 4.7% of enrolments were from international students in nursing programs.

CASN collects information from schools of nursing each year on the number of applications, admissions and enrolments of students and graduates from nursing programs. Unfortunately, we currently do not monitor the number of applications and enrolments from international students. However, it is possible to look at the global effects of the reforms when considering their full impact on nursing programs, both direct and indirect.

Following the COVID-19 pandemic, Canada experienced an acute nursing shortage that continues to impact health care today. In response to this acute need for nurses, provincial governments called for an increase in nursing seats and compressed programs across Canada. This short-term provincial funding allowed the schools to respond to this crisis by increasing seats in most nursing programs, including registered or licensed practical nursing programs, registered nursing programs and nurse practitioner programs.

There's a direct tension between the provincial funding for nursing seats and regulatory reforms that impacts budgets at universities and colleges overall. The overall decreases in budgets end up affecting nursing schools and their programs by increasing the workloads of smaller numbers of faculties and staff and diminished supports and services to both professors and students—for example, in mental health services and writing centres.

It's important to mention that the international student cap and other related regulatory changes are felt more in rural communities and institutions. For example, some universities and colleges in Atlantic Canada have higher proportions of international students. Beyond the financial implications for schools, we can see in certain locations a reliance on international student nursing graduates in order to fill shortages in local health care institutions. This is particularly true of programs that operate in linguistic minority contexts and rely on international students to meet their increasingly diverse health industry and population needs.

Current reforms are therefore significantly affecting provinces' health human resource needs and the increasing vulnerability of precarious yet essential nursing programs. In the short term, the decisions affect the viability of programs through program closures, layoffs, hiring freezes and so on. In the long term, they affect the academic institutions' capacity to address the increasing needs of diverse populations.

It's also important to note that, overall, the current international enrolment doesn't even meet the new threshold set by the governments, suggesting a deterring effect on international students' willingness to study in Canada following the reform.

Another impact of the reform is on the number of master's and Ph.D. students in nursing. Canada has a shortage of Ph.D. and master's prepared nurses. Highlights from our national faculty and student survey show that, in 2023, schools were unable to fill 78 permanent and long-term contract faculty positions. Schools projected a need to hire 200 permanent and 110 long-term contract faculty positions in 2024. Seventy-seven permanent faculty retired in 2023. Roughly 40% of schools reported a lack of nurses with Ph.D.s or master's degrees applying to faculty positions.

Delivery of sustainable education programs and the creation of a sustainable workforce require careful consideration from institutions and provincial and federal governments. All students, including international students, should enter a nursing program that has the physical and human resources, including classroom space, lab equipment, clinical placements for high-quality educational experience, successful program completion and students who are well-positioned to pass the registration exam. Graduate education in nursing is required for most faculty positions within schools of nursing and, therefore, has a direct impact on the sustainability of the nursing workforce.

I'm happy to take some questions afterwards.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you Mr. Jacob. That was six minutes and 34 seconds.

Now we'll go to Mr. Côté for five minutes.

André Côté Director, Policy and Research, The Dais at Toronto Metropolitan University

Thank you, Chair, and thanks to the committee for inviting me to speak.

My name is André Côté. I'm the director of policy and research at the Dais, which is a think tank at Toronto Metropolitan University. In a past life, I was also a senior adviser to an Ontario higher education minister, so I sort of bring that perspective as well.

I'll say just a quick word about the Dais. We're based out of Toronto Metropolitan University. Our work really focuses on public policy at the intersection of education, technology and democracy. Those are kind of our three big realms. As part of that, we've been doing a bunch of work on international education, including a project we launched in the spring to think about the future of international education in Canada, really in the wake of the January announcement, which I think it's safe to say threw the system into crisis a little bit and was the result of the huge surge in international enrolments and whatnot.

This project was with the Canadian Standards Association Public Policy Centre and a few other partners. The aim to a large extent was research, but it was also hosting round tables with a wide array of other partners and stakeholders in this space. My remarks will be informed by a bunch of the work we've been doing there. The report is to be released soon as well.

I'll just hit a few quick points and then I'm happy to elaborate further in the questions.

The first one is that we need to really focus on what we have to do to fix Canada's international education system for the future, rather than assigning blame for the past. I think the great frustration and anger are very understandable. I've certainly heard from many stakeholders in the space about what's happened over the past year. As someone who's been in this space observing for 10 years or so, I think there is plenty of blame to go around and, frankly, some of this was foreseeable years back. Certainly, some of this is on the federal government, but also a large share is on the provinces and certain provinces in particular that jointly manage the system. A share is on the universities and colleges, many of which chose to pursue really aggressive growth strategies. Then there were many other players in the system who had a real vested interest in this surge in growth, so they contributed.

I just think the first point is that, rather than dwelling on that, we really need to focus our energies on fixing the system to benefit Canada and also, importantly, doing right by foreign students coming to Canada. That's point one.

Point two is that I and we are broadly supportive of the government's reforms. I'll have some caveats in a moment.

This year, because they've come in these various announcements over time from January through the spring to another in September, it's been tough to gather this sort of full picture. However, when you look at the key reform, it certainly was around the study permitting system. I think the reforms have shifted it from what was a somewhat laissez-faire, demand-driven model to a right-sized and capped supply system linked to the temporary residence targets in the levels plan. This makes sense to me. You can quibble about the numbers and the approach, but it broadly brings some structure and that sort of sustainability piece that's been talked about.

Again, you can quibble over the numbers, but I think that measures to tighten up postgraduate work permit eligibility, putting in place more system integrity and accountability mechanisms, the attestation letters, more levers for overseeing DLIs, the changes to the working-hours policy, which were way too high at the 40 hours, and increasing the cost of living asset requirements were, as a broad package, some things that needed to be done.

Third, I would say that my sense is that the federal reforms have overstepped into some domains that are better managed by the provinces and by the post-secondary institutions. I think the particular areas of concern are around the reforms to tie postgraduate work permit eligibility for colleges to in-demand programs and the changes around graduate students, including incorporating them in the cap and things that seem reasonably minor, like limiting work eligibility to spouses of grad students in shorter programs.

One aspect is that these reforms are really using immigration levers to, in some regard, dictate post-secondary policy, which I think is problematic. That should largely be left to the provinces.

They're also very blunt instruments for trying to do these things. Frankly, on the postgraduate work permit eligibility, for example, is IRCC best placed to be forecasting labour market needs across the country or identifying qualifying programs? Many stakeholders we talked to had concerns with this piece.

Going forward, our recommendation is that this should be done in conjunction with or, frankly, potentially deferred to the provinces in future. It's something we can dig into. We see them as being much better equipped to understand local labour markets and regional development needs and to oversee post-secondary policy.

The fourth point is that the ISP is a jointly run system and there needs to be much better coordination and consultation. It has to be said that this crisis is, to a large extent, a failure of federalism. The feds and the provinces have not worked closely together enough on this.

I think a lot of the frustration with the reforms this year boils down to a perceived lack of consultation among stakeholders in many quarters. Fixing the system will require coordinated actions in a number of areas that we get into in our reports. These include ensuring integrity in consumer protection and recruitment, enhancing oversight and quality assurance of DLIs, improving academic supports and services for international students and more. I can get into these a bit more in the questions.

My last point is that efforts to renew the system should be built upon a new and long-term international education strategy, as well as efforts or a plan to rebuild brand Canada internationally. In short, many people we've talked to express the view that Canada has lost its way on international education. It has a system that has gradually become overly driven by driving short-term revenues, rather than national objectives and quality outcomes for students. We need a refreshed vision. We need clearer objectives and a refreshed strategy. It should be informed and guided by an extensive consultation process. It should reflect this dramatically changed environment, aligning post-secondary goals with our broader national objectives in immigration, labour markets, regional development and global affairs.

Last, it needs to reconcile the damage we've done to our brand internationally over the past year and think about coordinated approaches for rebuilding Canada's reputation and the trust of prospective students overseas, who were very high on Canada. The survey data we're seeing is that these have eroded reasonably quickly.

Thank you very much. I'll be happy to elaborate more during the question period.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you very much, Mr. Côté. That was seven minutes and 24 seconds.

Mr. Patel, I'm not going to stop you, but the signal is very clear. I don't want to cut the witnesses off, because I want the message to be clearly delivered to the committee members, but please....

3:50 p.m.

Director, Policy and Research, The Dais at Toronto Metropolitan University

André Côté

I apologize, Chair.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

It's no problem.

Now we'll go to Mr. Patel for five minutes.

Ajay Patel President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Good afternoon. Thank you very much, Chair Dhaliwal, for the opportunity to present on behalf of Vancouver Community College.

We are on the traditional unceded territory of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh peoples, who have been stewards of these lands since time immemorial.

As mentioned, I am the president of Vancouver Community College, but I'd like to share with you a few other roles I hold.

I'm a member of Invest Vancouver's management board. That's a standing committee of the Metro Vancouver Regional District. I'm an executive board member of Colleges and Institutes Canada, a trustee for World Education Services, a past chair of the Canadian Bureau for International Education, an executive member of BC Colleges and a board member for the BC Council for International Education. Prior to my role here at Vancouver Community College, for about 12 years, I held the international education portfolio in my administrative portfolios. I believe these roles, combined with my role here at VCC, provide me with a broad and unique perspective on the intersection of education, immigration and labour market development in Canada.

Vancouver Community College is British Columbia's oldest public post-secondary. We have about 13,000 learners across various fields, including health care, hospitality, culinary, technology and the trades. Of those 13,000 learners, about 30% are new-to-Canada immigrants and 30% are international. We work closely with employers to ensure our graduates are job ready. Our students have an average age of mid-thirties, and most of them already have a degree. Of our graduates, both international and domestic, 92% secure employment within months of completing their studies at VCC. Many of our graduates fill critical labour market needs in the areas of health care, hospitality, automotive and technology.

The impacts of recent reforms implemented by IRCC over the last year have created significant challenges for institutions like VCC and others.

The first one is the reduced student intake cap. I'll be very clear. Many of us agree that we needed to have a cap put in place. Since the cap was announced in January, however, we have seen declines in applications to B.C. public colleges of up to 90%, which threatens our labour supply in industries like health care, technology and hospitality. That's one of the unintended outcomes.

The second is postgraduate work permit reform. The new eligibility criteria fail to account for regional labour needs and disproportionately exclude college-trained professionals who are critical to Canada's economy.

Let me share three specific examples with you to give some context. Our culinary and hospitality graduates, who are vital to our tourism economies in both the metro and rural regions, are excluded, even though non-permanent residents make up over two-thirds of the two million people in that sector of the workforce, according to Stats Canada. College-trained dental hygienists and assistants are excluded from postgraduate work permit eligibility, despite the new national dental care program. Another example is early childhood education, which was initially excluded, and we are very thankful it is now being reconsidered.

Those are just three specific examples of the impact these reforms have. These exclusions, without proper consultation, hinder our ability to address labour market shortages and, in the end, to my mind, will harm small and medium-sized businesses.

The third point I'd like to make is on the inequity between public colleges and universities. Treating public college credentials differently from university program credentials undermines the essential role colleges play in meeting labour market needs, as well as Canada's education reputation. Our graduates are equally vital to Canada's economic growth.

The fourth point I'll talk about is the regional implication. International students in British Columbia contribute over $8 billion annually to B.C.'s economy and support nearly 80,000 jobs. With over a million projected job openings over the coming decade, these reforms, without proper consultation, risk exasperating our labour market shortages.

The fifth one is something André already mentioned. Canada's reputation is at risk. These overlapping, and what are perceived as sometimes hasty, policy reforms have weakened Canada's global reputation as a top education destination. We need to address that.

To address these challenges, I urge this standing committee to recommend to the government to, first, work with the provinces to update the list of postgraduate work permit eligible programs to better reflect regional labour market needs. Second, treat public college credentials equal to those of universities for postgraduate work permit eligibility. Third, engage with all stakeholders to strengthen partnerships among institutions, provinces, the federal government and IRCC. We all have a role to play in this success. The fourth one is that any policy reform should be implemented gradually so that clear timelines and thorough consultation take place to avoid unintended impacts.

VCC, along with the many organizations I represent and our public sector here in British Columbia, is committed to supporting a sustainable international student program that benefits students, communities and Canada's economy as a whole.

I look forward to hearing from the committee.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you very much, Mr. Patel. That was five minutes and 32 seconds.

Now it is time to move to the honourable members.

For the first round we will start with Mr. Kmiec for six minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am just warning the witnesses now that my questions are fast.

I am going to start with Mr. Patel first.

You mentioned that you support the cap. Were you consulted before the immigration changes were made?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Ajay Patel

No, we were not. There was some basic information collected, but there was no consultation around the specifics of the caps. I think we agreed with having caps, but since then there has been no consultation with us as institutions. I don't know if there was any other consultation or what level of consultation took place with the provinces.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Do you support making the cap permanent?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Ajay Patel

I support making the cap permanent as long as it lines up with Canada's need, and I think that's the important piece. What does Canada need first? Then let's look at the cap.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Yours is a public college. Do you support the cap on master's and Ph.D. students?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Ajay Patel

A short answer to that is yes, but again, we need to know what Canada needs. Do we need more people in certain master's programs? Then, yes, I would support that being part of the cap. Do you need more college graduates?

When you look at the labour market need in British Columbia, many of our—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I'm sorry, Mr. Patel. I'm going to interrupt you there.

How often does IRCC check with your registrar's office on the status of students?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Ajay Patel

I'd have to get back to you with that answer. My international head office would know the specifics, but it's at least a couple of times per year.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

If you could provide that to the committee, it would be really helpful.

Do you know if, before it issues the study permits, IRCC checks with your institution whether the students have paid their first full year of tuition at your institution?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Ajay Patel

Yes, IRCC has implemented a mechanism where, once we issue a letter of acceptance, we share that information with IRCC, and that information that we share—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I'm sorry, Mr. Patel. I didn't say “letter of acceptance”. I know that you do that. I meant with regard to whether the first year of tuition has been paid up or not before the student is issued a study permit.

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Ajay Patel

Yes, we do make sure that the tuition is paid up, and we communicate that to IRCC.

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

When do you communicate that?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Ajay Patel

It's as soon as the student has paid and we issue the letter of acceptance.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Does it sometimes happen that the student is already in Canada before they pay in full?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Community College

Ajay Patel

No. Our college policy is that we must receive the tuition payment in full before we issue anything.