Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I believe the interpreters are having trouble hearing the witness.

It's fixed now. Thank you.

Did Ms. MacLennan say that she agrees with the cap?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Yes, she agrees with the cap.

Are we okay to continue, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Yes.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Do I still have the rest of my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have four minutes left.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you.

I asked if you would support the cap if it were permanent, and you said, yes, with conditions, depending on how they would do it.

Would you support the cap on master's and Ph.D. students?

[Tiffany MacLennan]

No.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Before I go on to the Bar Association, I want to ask you another question. I'm on your website, and I do read Alex Usher quite often. I'm sure you knew that I was going to ask you about this.

I'm wondering if you can comment on this particular statement that he made:

Now, of course, Justin Trudeau was at the ready to back up his Minister with some truly odious crocodile tears. “Immigration is great” he said, “We just want to punish bad actors.” This is ludicrous. The government is in no way, shape or form going after specific bad actors; it is going after the entire sector. Whether this is cruelty or stupidity I leave to readers to decide, but Trudeau’s explanation holds no water. The only possible justification for the approach the feds have taken here is that “it’s a national problem,” (it isn’t, but that’s another story) “but we have to let provinces find their own solution to the problem of bad actors.” This at least is a constitutionally correct attitude but it’s very different from Trudeau's claim.

Could you please explain who the bad actors are, in your view?

[Tiffany MacLennan]

I can't speak on behalf of what Mr. Usher has written. He writes his blog without our input.

I would argue that the bad actors are the people who have been able to exploit international students well beyond their capacity in their communities. For example, if you look at institutions who have brought in hundreds or even thousands of international students well beyond what their funding needs are, I would consider them to be the bad actors in this situation.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'll move on to the Canadian Bar Association.

I'll ask you the same things that you've heard me ask the others.

Were you consulted before these changes were announced?

[Wei William Tao]

I can only speak from my own personal experience: no. I can't express on behalf of the Canadian Bar Association the answer to that question, but in my capacity I wasn't.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Madam Lehal, you're the chair of the national immigration section. Were you consulted?

[Kamaljit Lehal]

There was no direct consultation, although we have regular meetings with IRCC on various topics.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Do you support the temporary cap? Does your organization support the temporary cap?

[Wei William Tao]

We've yet to take a position on it. I think we'll be taking some positions on it in the days to come.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay.

Should the cap become permanent, would you take a position on that too? Would you support that?

[Kamaljit Lehal]

Again, we are looking into this. We will be doing submissions on this. We don't have a standing position on this.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Then you wouldn't have a position either on master's and Ph.D. students at all and whether they should be included in the cap or not.

[Wei William Tao]

Organizationally and individually are different. I think I'm allowed in my individual capacity to say that I don't agree with the cap on master's and Ph.D. students. Organizationally, we haven't taken a position.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay.

I'm going to ask this of both of you, because you are lawyers with a specialty in immigration law that I do not have.

My question is on annex 4 of the immigration levels plan.

You mentioned that some of these changes target international students very directly on their path to permanent residency. I'm bringing up the immigration levels plan because I think it's important. You specifically disagreed with the need to make international students reapply for a new study permit if they change their designated learning institute. There were other things you were concerned about. The plan calls for people to voluntarily leave—almost a million people—over two years.

How would the ministry do this legally? What are their options to ensure people leave voluntarily? When I asked this question of the minister, he couldn't answer. I'm wondering what two lawyers, specifically experts in immigration law, understand to be the methods to make people leave.

[Wei William Tao]

What we're seeing making applicants leave on their own, in practice, are refusals of extensions, refusals of applications and delays in processing PR.

Do I think it's enough, personally, to remove that many individuals in this period of time? It's going to be a hard process. I don't think there's anything in law that will make it easy, unless some sort of policy or program comes into place, or some announcement is made to make it a coordinated effort.

We're saying to hold off on the coordinated effort until it's clear who's in and who's out of the new plans.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much.

We will go to Parliamentary Secretary Chiang.

The next six minutes are yours.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for allowing me to ask questions.

I'd like to thank all of the witnesses here today for committing their time to help us with the study.

My first question is for the Canadian Bar Association.

The government's decision to raise the financial threshold for study permit applicants aims to ensure students are better prepared for life in Canada.

How does this align with recommendations in your December 2023 letter to Minister Miller to safeguard international students against financial vulnerabilities?

[Kamaljit Lehal]

Obviously, there need to be financial thresholds for students, but they have to be in keeping with abilities. I believe our submissions have always consistently been that students need to be supported with resources like housing once they come to Canada. They are paying premium tuition fees, so housing, counselling and all of those additional supports are essential.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Do you agree they need to be financially secure before they get to Canada?