Evidence of meeting #120 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Co-Chair of the International Affairs Committee, Fédération des cégeps
I will add that with the regionalizing of labour market needs, too restrictive a list would impede economic development in certain regions that have more specific economic activities.
Liberal
Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC
Mr. Chukwuma, a lot of people argue that it would be wise for educational institutions to work with communities in order to align themselves with labour market needs.
Given the measures in place, what long-term opportunities do you see for adapting international education in Canada to have it better meet the needs of Canadian students and communities?
Chair, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
For us, meeting labour shortage needs is important. A lot of the issues we've been seeing with our students regarding having access to jobs are mostly through work-integrated learning and being able to get Canadians experience while they're studying.
One of our recommendations, done through consultations with provinces, institutions, businesses and chambers of commerce, is for the government to identify province-specific labour market needs and adjust the field of study requirements province by province accordingly. That way, institutions in different provinces would be meeting needs with the kinds of students they accept and attract. We would also be able to continue promoting innovation and productivity in Canada with the current international student program.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you very much, Mr. El-Khoury. I'm sorry, but I have to move to the next honourable member.
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, please go ahead for six minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to all our witnesses for being with us here today.
I am going to speak mainly to the representatives of the Fédération des cégeps during today's meeting.
At an earlier meeting of this committee, I asked the representatives of the department whether they knew how many international students are enrolled in the CEGEP system and they were unable to answer me, and yet this is the department that justifies withdrawing CEGEP students' access to a post-graduation permit on the basis that there has been unbelievable and unsustainable growth in the number of international students in these institutions.
Ms. Laflamme, how do you answer the department when you hear things like this?
Co-Chair of the International Affairs Committee, Fédération des cégeps
I am going to ask my colleague, Ms. Casanovas, to answer that question.
International Attraction and Immigration Advisor, Fédération des cégeps
First, we are sorry to learn that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada does not know how many students there are in our system.
Second, regarding unsustainable growth. We have provided an appendix to the committee with figures on this subject so members can review them. You will see that there has been no unsustainable growth in foreign students in Quebec's CEGEPs.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much for that answer.
Ms. Laflamme, earlier, you spoke a bit about specific programs offered by the CEGEPs outside urban areas that may be more adapted to the socioeconomic circumstances in the region where the CEGEP is located. When it comes to international students, there are even programs that would be at risk, from what you said.
Can you explain to the committee what you meant by that?
Co-Chair of the International Affairs Committee, Fédération des cégeps
Outside urban areas in Quebec, enrolment in some programs is declining. We are talking about specific programs, such as forestry and industrial engineering. We know that it is difficult for these programs to attract Quebec students. When they attract international students who offer us a skilled workforce and offer our businesses the opportunity to hire workers, that is an enormous asset for our regions.
I can give you a very specific example involving the Cégep de Jonquière. In some very specific programs, such as chemical engineering, 75% of the student population comes from outside Canada. Without those students, our program would be in jeopardy and our chemical engineering businesses would no longer have skilled workers to hire.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you.
You said that having international students come here was not actually a way to refill your institutions' coffers. That aspect is unclear to some people in the rest of Canada and I know there are different approaches on this point.
Could you explain what is different in the CEGEPs when it comes to the money that flows into the institution's coffers because of international students?
Co-Chair of the International Affairs Committee, Fédération des cégeps
Ms. Casanovas, I will let you start on the answer and I will then continue.
International Attraction and Immigration Advisor, Fédération des cégeps
Thank you for your question.
I am going to give a very brief description of this complex issue.
First, since we are in a public institution, the funding system is regulated by the ministère de l'Enseignement supérieur, which determines the tuition fees to be paid by international students.
Second, most of that money transits through the CEGEP, if I may put it that way, but goes back to the provincial ministry, so in the CEGEPs there are none of what are called deregulated fees.
This funding system is somewhat more complex, but that is the broad outline.
Co-Chair of the International Affairs Committee, Fédération des cégeps
I will add that this is not a financial benefit, since we do not receive any additional funds. We receive funding for a student in the standard program when we admit an international student. It is more a question of the vitality and survival of our programs.
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I imagine that resources must also be allocated to offering support for these students, who may sometimes need help adjusting to a different way of studying from the one they knew. That must cost our CEGEPs a bit of money, and I wanted to point that out.
It is important to talk about the federal department's lack of knowledge when it comes to the CEGEP system. That is why I absolutely wanted you to testify before our committee. I get the impression that Ottawa is not aware that Quebec has an education system that is different from those in the rest of Canada. Unfortunately, they are putting forward measures that apply across Canada to address challenges that relate to Ontario.
Should there be more targeted or more regional measures when Ottawa is making decisions? I would like to know your opinion about that.
Co-Chair of the International Affairs Committee, Fédération des cégeps
Ms. Casanovas, do you want to go first to answer the question?
International Attraction and Immigration Advisor, Fédération des cégeps
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, we understand that the federal measures are decided by the federal government, but, as you said, the situation when it comes to CEGEPs is extremely different. This is a situation unique to our province, or even to our education system or post-secondary system. Yes, it would be desirable to have measures that are more tailored.
I would note that the Fédération des cégeps is always available to have this kind of conversation with the departments concerned. We will be very happy to talk to them. We will always be across the table.
Bloc
Co-Chair of the International Affairs Committee, Fédération des cégeps
Regionalization is a subject dear to my own heart.
I think the unique feature of the CEGEP system is that the CEGEPs are not found solely in the big centres; they are also located in all the regions of Quebec. They are not megacolleges or megaschools. There are between 500 and 5,000 students in our institutions, so there is not enormous growth.
What we mainly want is to give our people an opportunity to obtain a post-secondary education everywhere within Quebec. The presence of international students also enables us to offer a range of diverse programs and high quality teaching all across Quebec, which is why it is important to regionalize decisions. We want to meet specific labour market needs and the needs of local businesses, not Canadian needs that do not affect every region.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you very much.
Now we will go to MP Kwan for six minutes.
MP Kwan, please go ahead.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for their presentations and for appearing before the committee today.
I'd like to direct my question to the representative for international students.
It has been cited repeatedly that international students contribute some $30 billion to Canada's economy. With the abrupt changes the government brought about and with the targeting of international students—blaming them for the housing crisis that successive Canadian governments, Liberal and Conservative, have created—what do you think the impact of the changes will be on Canada's economy? In your discussion with IRCC officials, did you ask them whether they have taken that into consideration?
Chair, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
For us, it comes down to a number of things. First of all, in terms of the economic contribution of international students, that comes from a lack of funding for institutions across the provinces. There's been over a decade of underfunding of public institutions, whether they're in Ontario, Alberta or Nova Scotia. International student tuition dollars have become an important component for a lot of public institutions, as they keep their operations going. The impact we're seeing right now is because they've become so over-dependent on international student tuition dollars due to the lack of funding. We're seeing programs being cut already at a lot of colleges, polytechnics and even some universities. Administrative staff are being let go as well. All of this is happening, especially just before the holiday season.... Imagine finding out that you may not have a job come the new year because of situations like this.
As for the impact on us, we're definitely making sure we continue to provide a high-quality education system while recognizing that funding is an important component that needs to come from our government to keep public institutions afloat.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
There's no question that post-secondary institutions and provinces have come to rely on international students. Frankly, in many ways, they're being used as a cash cow. Some people say they're being used as ATMs, because given international students' tuition fees, at minimum they're paying six times more than domestic students are.
Of course, there are implications with these changes not just for international students but for domestic students as well. As you've indicated, course selection and opportunities are being reduced because post-secondary institutions no longer have access to funding. They have to cut programs in a variety of different ways, so that impact would be significant.
In terms of housing, the government is blaming international students for creating the housing crisis, but part of the problem, as far as I can see, is that the federal government walked away from building social housing back in 1993 under the Liberals. In 1992, the Conservatives cancelled the co-op housing program and simply relied on the private sector to deliver housing. Clearly, for over three decades, the government has not addressed the housing crisis that we now face.
Historically, there have been times when institutions partnered with different levels of government to provide and build student housing. Do you think there should be a program like that in place, where all partners are required to make contributions in building student housing?
Chair, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
I think that's something we've advocated for, and we thank the current government for giving us some of that through the national housing strategy last year.
You mentioned the lack of partnership in co-op housing in 1992. One thing we've advocated for with Minister Fraser in the past is to include co-ops and institutions in being able to access funding from the national housing strategy.
To your question, I think all stakeholders should partner together to solve the affordability crisis. The allocation of international students as the cause of the housing crisis is unfair. I've been in Canada since 2012, and even before the increase in international students, housing was always an issue.
Affordability is more the issue that we're facing now as a country. I think it's important to recognize that international students are also victims in this situation, but they could be part of the solution. If we encourage them to go into trade programs, where they can help contribute to the construction of housing, that could help increase the affordability of housing and could help with the affordability crisis we're facing in housing in general.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Canada used to go to the international community to try to attract international students. This about-face is stark in terms of its message. How do you think the international community is receiving that? What damage does that do to Canada's reputation?