Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

MP Brunelle-Duceppe, you have two and a half minutes. You can please proceed.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I hope you cannot hear the horns too much; my office looks out on to Wellington Street.

Yesterday afternoon, we received the government's response to our written questions on the topic we are dealing with in this meeting. I will summarize what it says. I would like to hear Mr. Mastropaolo's comments. The other witnesses can add to that if they wish.

Here are some of the findings. First, the refusal rates for temporary permits are significantly higher for students who want to study in Quebec than for those who want to study elsewhere in Canada. Second, processing times are typically longer in Quebec than in the rest of Canada for all types of permanent immigration files. Third, the acceptance rate for study permits for English-language universities is higher than for French-language universities.

So, at the end of the day, what is the source of the problem? Is it because of a discriminatory process? Does our immigration system inherently discriminate against foreign students, especially francophones?

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

Let me react to that question.

Yes, it is a valid question: is there discrimination based on country of origin, language or even the level of education sought? We see it in the statistics for CEGEPs: they have the highest refusal rates of all levels of education, especially for students from French-speaking countries, Western Europe excluded. For us, the refusal rates at the CEGEP level are problematic. The trend is clear. The trend actually existed even before the pandemic and before the automated processing system went into operation.

The same is true for processing times. They are far too long. As I mentioned earlier, people hear nothing for weeks on end. Minister Fraser responded by adding resources. That is a good thing, we welcome the gesture, but the mechanisms are still reactive. Are we always going to wait until we have a backlog of 1.8 million files before anything is done? Yet institutions have been complaining about the situation for three, four or five years.

Finally, it is true that acceptance rates are higher on the English side than on the French side, according to the available data.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

What you are really saying is that Quebec is penalized because it has a different education system from the rest of Canada.

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

That is our assumption, yes. On the one hand, it's because our higher education system is different. On the other hand—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, but time is up.

We will now proceed to MP Kwan.

MP Kwan, you have two and a half minutes for your round of questioning.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My question is for Mr. Davidson.

One of the issues, of course, for university institutions is to attract new talent. Then, of course, I think part of it is to retain the new talent, as well. To that end, there's the idea of bringing forward a new immigration measure that would not only attract students but also provide them with permanent resident status as a stream, particularly in this case for francophone Africans, or students, if you will, because we also need to attract and retain francophone speakers in Quebec as well as outside of Quebec. What are your thoughts on that?

[Paul Davidson]

I'm really glad you raised the issue of attracting and retaining students.

Again, Canada's done some remarkably innovative things over recent years to increase the eligibility to work while you're a student, which not only provides income but gives you work experience and work-integrated learning opportunities while you're here. We've also extended, through the post-graduate work permits, the opportunities for people to really plan to be in Canada for a period of time, and frankly to put down roots while they're here.

There are also some really innovative programs in conjunction with the private sector. I think of the Halifax Partnership in Nova Scotia, which works with international students from the day they arrive in Canada to show them the opportunities and benefits of staying in Canada. We've also benefited over the last several years from the alignment of federal and provincial governments in Atlantic Canada to really make international students an engine for economic renewal in Atlantic Canada. In fact, I've heard some people speak of Canada's universities as being the Pier 21 of the 21st century. They're not only attracting people, but integrating them into Canadian life and making this a very attractive place for them to live, work and raise a family.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Would you support, then, the call that Ms. Bezo was advancing, and that is the idea of creating a new immigration stream for international students in this instance that would be targeted toward the francophone African community for PR status?

[Paul Davidson]

We always have to be alert to new mechanisms, new policies, that will enhance our competitiveness globally on this. There are huge opportunities with regard to francophone students from francophone Africa and elsewhere.

I would note the large percentage of international students who go on with postgraduate work permits, who proceed to permanent residency. That's a good path that we've created. There may be other ways we can explore going forward. I'm delighted that this committee is so interested in the subject.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to our second round of questioning with MP Godin and MP Dhaliwal. Each one of you will have four minutes.

MP Godin, please go ahead.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to finish getting the answers to the question I asked in my last round.

Mr. Brown Mastropaolo, how do we stop the bleeding? I won't repeat the whole question because I would like to ask another one afterwards.

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

Thank you for asking that question again. I'll answer it quickly.

First of all, I feel we need a fairly rigorous analysis of the mechanisms IRCC has to ensure procedural fairness. That should be built into the immigration system. But, when we look at the refusal rates, we do not see it.

The issue of transparency in our immigration system also needs to be addressed.

We are also talking about different solutions, such as the student direct stream or the new pathway to permanent residency for international students. We must all look at a set of solutions together. When IRCC works alone, we then have to sort of flounder around to make sure that things are explained properly. So we need better dialogue between the educational institutions and IRCC on the issue of international students.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Brown Mastropaolo.

I have a question that is really bugging me. I will give you my opinion, my personal observation, and then I'd like to hear from all three of you. You are the experts and you are the ones who have to put up with the situation.

As you know, there are economic consequences for the community, but also for your educational institutions. The fewer teachers they have, the less revenue, and when there is less revenue, programs are cut.

Isn't that a way of letting the motivation to promote French slip away?

The question goes to Ms. Bezo, Mr. Davidson and Mr. Brown Mastropaolo.

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

I will answer first.

For us, the issue is the upper limit. I wouldn't say that the motivation is slipping away, because the number of international students at our institutions is increasing. However, we are levelling off. CEGEPs are not growing fast enough to meet the demand or to allow them to build on the quality of the education they offer. They are trying to attract students from countries where young people don't just want university degrees, they also want advanced diplomas in technical or applied fields.

For us, that is a ceiling, and it is getting particularly thick.

[Larissa Bezo]

Just picking up on Francis' comments, I agree. This is complex. There are many elements to this kind of puzzle. If we really want to have an impact in our communities, and think about the critical role that our institutions can play as those anchors, social, economic and otherwise, we really need to focus on conversations that focus on better alignment.

Those conversations would focus not only on community needs and labour market needs but aligning those with IRCC's immigration goals, dealing with the operational issues around visa processing, and any potential unintended bias in terms of consistent approaches to processing. Those should not serve as barriers to our future growth and prosperity as a country, and certainly at provincial and community levels as well.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I would like to hear your opinion, Mr. Davidson.

[Paul Davidson]

What we have is an opportunity for communities large and small across the country. I would pick up on Larissa's point about the alignment between the federal government, the provincial governments, the local communities, and what their needs are.

You are absolutely right, Monsieur Godin, that by having international students in your community, you increase the number of opportunities for your domestic students. You can run the second lab. You can run a broader array of courses. You can encourage those students to develop relationships with people around the world. That's good for Canada; that's good for Quebec. It's good for francophone minority communities, as well.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

My thanks to all the witnesses. I am grateful for your answers.

I have no further questions, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now end today's panel with Mr. Dhaliwal. You have four minutes.

Yes, Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before we end the meeting, I'd like to raise an issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Okay.

We will now proceed to Mr. Dhaliwal.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Last year, the Liberal government brought in a landmark immigration policy to help students. When you look at the 90,000 applications that were brought in and the 27,000 express applications, it was a great help. The intent of the government is to get all students into the PR stream and then into citizenship.

I still keep hearing from students from countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh about being discriminated against based on their country of origin. Their visas are rejected. We have a dual intent that the students who are going to come here to study get into the PR and citizenship streams.

Why are they being rejected and how can the government bring in a consistent policy? It was mentioned earlier that they're not going to go back to their country and they should not be rejected based on that.

Would any of you like to comment?