Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

Thank you for the question.

In fact, it would be important not to gloss over the real reasons behind the high rejection rates. Talking about the financial capabilities of applicants, whether it's $10,000 or $13,000, is unfortunately not part of the battle to be fought, in my opinion.

Let me explain the situation concretely. First, the difference between these two amounts is minimal. Second, we see that the same refusal rate applies to students who are awarded scholarships by the Quebec government, including merit scholarships, in which case the scholarship recipients receive $14,000 per year in living expenses for the duration of their studies and are exempt from tuition fees. Despite the fact that they are scholarship recipients from the Quebec government and have been selected by CEGEPs after analysis of their file, these students are also denied a study permit.

So I don't think that the issue of students' financial capacity is the priority battle to be fought.

We have statistics on refusal rates for CEGEP studies based on countries of origin. We are able to make all the necessary comparisons. We know what the most popular reasons are for refusing a study permit. In light of the refusal rates and the reasons that accompany these refusals, sometimes numerous for the same student, I believe that our priority, as a nation, should be to look at the immigration system and the analysis that is done. On the one hand, how well do immigration officials know our higher education system in Canada, as well as the reality of those young people who wish to study abroad? On the other hand, why are the refusal rates higher for certain institutions?

Based on these statistics, we must begin to establish a precise and complete diagnosis of the situation, before looking at a slightly more operational mechanism that relates to a shared jurisdiction between the federal and provincial levels.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

My second question is for Ms. Bezo.

In the context of the COVID‑19 pandemic, several visa applications for international students are still being processed. For comparison, can you tell us what the processing times were before COVID‑19, and what they were after the pandemic began?

According to Statistics Canada data, the cost of tuition for an international student enrolled in university is about three times that of a Canadian student. This may be a barrier for some international students. Have you approached Canadian universities to reduce their tuition fees for international students?

[Larissa Bezo]

Yes, in terms of looking at the trends and the experiences prepandemic versus throughout this pandemic period, there are some notable differences. As I mentioned in my opening comments, from a processing standpoint, given public health measures and limitations in being able to access visa processing centres and supporting documentation, we saw a slowing down and, in fact, a halting of the processing of those applications in the early days of the pandemic. There has been an effort to ramp it up since that time.

Based on the numbers that we are seeing, our international education sector has recovered in the overall numbers that we saw prepandemic, at the end of 2019.

From that perspective, we are very much encouraged. However, as I mentioned, half a million who have applied through those processes have been rejected since 2016.

I concur with my colleagues, Paul and Francis. There is more work operationally to be done to clear those pathways, address some of those issues and perhaps unpack any systemic issues that may be standing in the way of that.

With respect to the tuition fees, yes, this is an area of sensitivity. We have been working with institutions, not only in trying to think about those talent pipelines and ways in which we could move students into the Canadian context, but trying to be sensitive in the ways in which the value of that Canadian education is positioned.

I can share with you CBIE's most recent international student survey. In December 2019, it received 40,000-plus international student responses from those who are currently in Canada. They continue to cite the high quality of the Canadian education system as one of the most desirable elements—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Wrap up, please. Your time is up.

[Larissa Bezo]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to MP Brunelle-Duceppe. You have six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First of all, I thank the witnesses for appearing this morning. This is a very important study that is very close to my heart, as we know.

I have heard the Conservatives talk about competition and the Liberals blame the Quebec government in their first questions. I, for one, think that we are here to find solutions, because there is indeed a problem. On the one hand, human beings who are given a dream are having it ripped out of their hands in the most impersonal way possible. On the other hand, there is a crystallization of unfair treatment for French speakers in this country, regardless of their origin. This study is therefore important, and I hope that we will readjust our aim in order to find concrete solutions, because the start of the school year in September 2022 is coming up quite quickly.

Mr. Brown Mastropaolo, I loved your opening presentation. In our study, there will be a lot of talk about statistics, but we must not forget that behind them there are human faces.

It would be nice if you could describe to us the typical journey of a French-speaking African student who has been refused a study permit. Can you list the steps he would have taken, for example?

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

Thank you for asking me the question and thereby giving me the opportunity to tell you about what international students have to go through, which is sometimes described as an obstacle course.

I will use a student from Cameroon as an example. Let's call her Amina. She is about to graduate from high school. She goes to an EduCanada fair in Cameroon, where she meets officials from Global Affairs Canada and some representatives from CEGEPs. They give her advice and help her to complete her application, which she submits promptly. She is accepted. Given the quality of her record, she receives an academic scholarship from the Quebec government. As I mentioned, the scholarship provides $14,000 for living expenses and also waives tuition. After obtaining her Certificat d'acceptation du Québec, Amina is able to submit her complete application for a study permit to the Canadian visa office around the end of April. For 20 weeks, Amina receives no news from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, IRCC. The CEGEP tries to reassure her as best they can. For CEGEPs, the school year starts sometime between August 20 and 25. Amina receives an answer from IRCC between September 5 and 10. The answer is a refusal.

What are the typical reasons for a refusal? First, the officer is not convinced that Amina will return to Cameroon when she finishes her studies in Canada. Second, the officer does not feel that the proposed program of study is reasonable, given her career path or other educational opportunities available to her locally. Those are the reasons often given.

At this point, let's ask some questions. First, how can an immigration officer judge whether or not Amina will return to Cameroon, especially when the various levels of government have established a wide range of incentives for temporary residents, especially international students, to become permanent residents? Then, how is an immigration officer an appropriate substitute for the authority of an institution of higher learning in expressing an opinion on someone's academic career? And finally, is it an immigration officer's role to assess the validity of the education system in Canada, or, in this case, in Cameroon?

In total, Amina spent 10 months of her year convincing her parents, gathering some extra funds, preparing for her stay and obtaining a scholarship. Basically, she has to abandon her plans and she does not really understand why. The CEGEP cancels her stay, also without really understanding why.

That's the basic problem: no one understands why. CEGEPs meet with many quality candidates and, after reviewing their files, decide to award them scholarships because they believe that they have what it takes to succeed. So why are they being turned down?

Amina will continue to talk about Canada, as will her parents, but the discourse will change. It will no longer be to dream of the maple leaf; it will no longer be about the snow, the cultural experience, or the quality of the education. Instead, Canada will become a synonym for dashed hopes, an obstacle course with traps everywhere.

Amina's story is the story of thousands of French-speaking students from Africa whom we in the CEGEPs meet every year when we are taking part in various recruitment activities, including the EduCanada fairs.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Do I have any time left, Madam Chair? I thought it was important to let Mr. Brown Mastropaolo answer the question at length.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Yes. You have one minute and 15 seconds.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That's great, thank you.

Mr. Brown Mastropaolo, you talked about the impact on students from francophone Africa when study permits are refused. Could you tell us about the impact on Canada's reputation and on the education provided by CEGEPs in Quebec?

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

Very quickly, I would say that the consequence for Canada's reputation is the lack of trust that is created. Our strategy then has to be to re‑establish our reputation, rather than to attract the attention of more international students in the countries we are talking about.

CEGEPs are questioning their participation in the Canadian government's initiatives to attract international students because the results are not there. Why would they invest thousands of dollars in them for so few results?

Then you wanted to know about the impact on CEGEPs. Although international students represent only 3% of our student population, without them, 37 programs in 20 CEGEPs would be at risk. In other words, those programs would not be offered if the international students were not there.

The challenge is not to attract students, especially from France. The problem comes when we want to increase the number of international students and diversify—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. Can you please wrap up?

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

In short, the consequences are in the teaching: program options decrease and courses are in jeopardy, especially outside the major centres.

In addition, from a cultural perspective, we are not able to diversify where the international students on our campuses come from.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We will now proceed to MP Kwan.

MP Kwan, you have six minutes for your round of questioning.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their expertise and presentations.

I'd like to put my first question to you, Ms. Bezo. You mentioned in your opening remarks the issue of dual intent. Indeed, dual intent exists factually for family reunification, but yet, even in that stream, we're seeing a lot of rejections on the premise that the immigration officials who assess the applications deem the visits from the spouse such that they would not return to their home country, because of dual intent. With respect to students, in this instance, yes, students want to come and study, and some may want to stay, but it does not necessarily mean that they would violate their immigration requirements and not return home.

From that perspective, as IRCC takes these items into consideration, would you suggest that the government should actually make it clear that unless there is a history of violation of immigration rules, the person should not be automatically rejected because somehow IRCC officials deem that they would not return home?

[Larissa Bezo]

I guess from our perspective, if we're really thinking about the strategic potential that comes from that pathway and that pipeline, we would strongly recommend that we think outside the box on this. Rather than working within that temporary visa framework that exists, we could think about that pathway for those who may choose to stay and for whom Canada would want to open the door to that possibility. Looking at perhaps an entirely new pathway that would allow us to explore an explicit opportunity for students who want to both study and then remain after graduation, would be, from our perspective, much more strategic. It would allow us as a country to really identify those gaps in those areas.

We hear very clearly, for example, from our business leaders that we need to be recruiting and growing new talent to be competitive globally. We're hearing that the viability of our research institutions, knowledge industries and key sectors depend on an influx of that top global talent. We're hearing from ESDC that we're facing severe skill shortages in critical growth sectors. From our perspective, we see this as a very strategic moment in time, in thinking about our country's future prosperity and our future global connectedness, to really step outside of that existing framework and say, no, in fact we'd like to open the door to a more explicit framework; there's space.

I think our institutions are certainly keen to be part of that solution and think about how we innovate around this and create a much bolder pathway that aligns with and complements our nation's overall immigration goals. I think it's critically important to really think about this from a much more strategic standpoint and the future—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Perhaps I can jump in here. Do you mean to say that IRCC should bring in a new stream for international students, not only to study here but to stay here, to get permanent resident status? Is that what you mean?

[Larissa Bezo]

Yes. I think there's absolute merit in considering that and not applying that much more limiting temporary framework. I think we need to think very differently and much more boldly about how we chart that future path for the country. This would signal that significantly.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Some have argued that what students should be able to attain is this principle of “good enough to study here, good enough to stay”. Is that what you're suggesting?

[Larissa Bezo]

I think they're great to study here and it is absolutely in our strategic interest for them to stay. Let us think strategically about how we create that path. I think our education institutions are keen to innovate around this, and I think we have a unique opportunity as a country in this moment.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Mastropaolo, I'd like to ask you the same question on the issue around dual intent and the issue around rejection, saying that IRCC should not automatically judge because they think someone would not return even if there's no history of a violation of immigration rules.

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

Yes, for us, refusing permits on the grounds of dual intent makes absolutely no sense in several respects. First, it just looks like a pretty easy way to reject candidates. Second, we have a whole range of incentives for them to stay here after they graduate. In fact, right from the start, their ability to come to Canada temporarily is reviewed as if they were coming permanently.

Dual intent became an issue when, for example, there was concern that a person would later claim refugee protection. However, when we look at the data, we see that the students who claim refugee protection are mostly from India and China, meaning that they are mostly people who come here to study in English. The students claiming refugee protection are not really from the countries where the CEGEPs recruit.

At this point in the analysis, then, I feel that the dual intent issue is irrelevant.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

All right.

Ms. Bezo was saying that IRCC should bring forward a new immigration stream for students who come and then also provide them with permanent resident status as a new stream. Is that something you would call for or support?