Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 21st, 2022

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

First, I want to say thank you to all our witnesses who are in person or on Zoom today. I really appreciate your time and your presentations.

I'll start with Mrs. Roman for my first questions. I'll reflect on something that happened in previous testimony, and I want your impression on this. We heard from a witness during the committee that Canada should withdraw from its UNHCR commitment to aid only privately sponsored refugees. In your opinion, what damage would this do to the overall perspective of helping individuals here who are the most vulnerable in our world?

[Mary Roman]

I believe this is going to be a very challenging issue, because it doesn't create equity and justice for everyone. We understand the concept of refugees; they are coming to different countries not by choice, but because they are forced to. I believe that's going to be very challenging.

The privately sponsored refugees have some supports of an entourage that is providing them with economic and moral support, whereas others are quite vulnerable and multibarriered. I believe through the UNHCR this is their only way to a safe haven.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much for that answer, and thank you for the clarification for us. I think it's most important for our government to help the most vulnerable individuals.

You referred in your testimony to wanting to talk to us about GARs and refugee claimants. You did open the door to certain solutions. You mentioned future innovations, and that's certainly something that's top of mind for the government and certainly the ministry. We know the paper aspect was definitely very difficult during the pandemic, so we are modernizing it.

I'm interested to know more about the better system interlink that you were.... Could you just explore a bit more in that sense with us? That's very interesting.

[Elizabeth Long]

It's definitely a great thing that everything now is online and paperless, for a few reasons. One, it's easier for applicants to submit the application, and two, it's easier for the IRCC officers to pass the files around. We no longer need to be in a specific physical location to access the files. Because of this, we no longer need to go back to just adhering to the old system of the visa posts and having officers at the visa posts deciding applications for people who are in the countries or in the countries around them. The law also changed in 2019 to allow the minister to have anyone look at these applications.

What I am suggesting is instead of hiring all these people overseas at the visa posts, let's hire in Canada and let's provide jobs for people in Canada. Let's train officers to specialize in specific applications, in post-grad work permits or in inter-company transferees. We have some visa posts determining things in four weeks. Others are determining things in 37 weeks—

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Ms. Long, I'm so sorry. I would like also to hear from Ms. Roman, if you don't mind.

[Elizabeth Long]

I'm so sorry. I thought you were asking me the question.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

We appreciate every witness. Maybe allow Ms. Roman, based on her testimony, to refer back.

Thank you.

[Mary Roman]

We were talking about adopting the same model as for some exams, like the IELTS or the TOEFL, which are being automated and triaged online. If the application components, which are usually ticked for the CRA and CBSA components, are automated and everything is according to the code and everything is meeting, the system should triage the applications as complete or incomplete. That would cut down on almost 75% of the work done by humans, because it's ticking all the points.

Again, it takes a lot of time to make that cycle between the different government departments, so until the CRA and CBSA provide their input.... If it's all present on an intranet—a government network—I believe they will automatically answer each other and finish the application.

That's what we are trying to do. It's to take the caseload of human effort away from the human officers who are dealing with it. They have an extreme, aggravating caseload. It's to just try to triage those that are complete and ready to put in the funnel, process them more quickly, and make an equitable standard for everyone. This is not subject to opinions or to the evaluation of different ones. It's a standardized process that's going to be applicable to everyone.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you for that.

I would say, you know—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I am sorry for interrupting, Mrs. Lalonde. Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

You will have six minutes. You can please begin.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I thank the witnesses who are here today very much for this extremely important study, which concerns us all. They have touched on a number of topics in their opening remarks; I will not have enough time in six minutes to cover them all.

I will address you first, Ms. Dench. I have listened to you with great interest. Just recently, in the response of Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, Mr. Sean Fraser to a report arising from a study on the inequities between the number of students accepted from Africa and the number of students accepted from elsewhere in the world—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. There is an interpretation issue. I think there is some echo. We will just check it before we proceed.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Is it working now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Yes, it's okay now.

Please go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

All right. Will you reset the clock, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Yes, we'll restart.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

I welcome the witnesses who are participating today in this very important study. They have touched on a number of topics in their opening statements, so I won't be able to cover them all in just six minutes.

Ms. Dench, in a response from the Minister of Immigration to a report produced following a study by this committee into the selection of foreign students and the inequities that existed between students from Africa and those from elsewhere, the minister bluntly admitted that there was racism — that's the word he used — within IRCC and that it could affect whether or not a person got a study permit, depending on where they came from.

In your opinion, does racism within IRCC affect the processing times of cases, as this is what we are interested in in our study today?

[Janet Dench]

Yes. We find that there is a lot of systemic racism within the department, and it's good news that the department recognizes this. We see some good progress being made through the working group that has been set up within the department. We have been able to have discussions with them and we see that they are willing to tackle these issues.

In terms of resource allocation, this is an area where we have a lot of criticism. For decades, the resources allocated to African countries, for example, have been much less than those allocated in other parts of the world. This has an impact on processing times.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

This is, in fact, downright racist. Thank you very much.

I also heard you talk about the Safe Third Country Agreement. I am very interested in that. The Bloc Québécois is calling for the suspension of the agreement, because the government is still not using the tool provided for in one of its articles. The minister tells us that he wants to modernize this agreement with the United States.

Since negotiations are taking place, wouldn't this be the right tool to help the refugees who come here, and would it not also make the negotiations with the Americans go much faster?

[Janet Dench]

We believe that we really should suspend the agreement or withdraw from it altogether. We at the Canadian Council for Refugees believe that our withdrawal from or the suspension of the agreement would be of benefit to everyone. Claimants would be able to present themselves in an orderly fashion at ports of entry across the country, and it would be an end to the movement on Roxham Road, which causes all sorts of headaches.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That's fantastic.

I think it would also be much more dignified and humane to welcome these people through the front door rather than the back.

Thank you very much, Ms. Dench.

Ms. Long, you touched on the subject of dual intent in your opening remarks.

You were saying that Canadian law allows a student who has obtained a study permit to apply for permanent residence after some time, but that the same law gives an officer the authority to deny a study permit to a student because they may decide to stay in the country following graduation.

I'd like you to expand on that and tell us how this kind of power given to officers can affect timelines.

[Elizabeth Long]

Was that question directed to me?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, Ms. Long.

[Elizabeth Long]

As a country, we have essentially had policies to encourage international students to come to study in our country and for them to get permanent residence. They are the ideal immigrants. As international students, they are young, have a high level of education and are integrated into our society.

However, when we apply for study permits, we have to explain to the officers why it is that the students don't want to study in their home countries and how their programs are going to help them, not in their careers in Canada or anywhere else, but in their careers back home.

Applications are routinely denied because the officers say they don't think the students will return to their home countries. This dichotomy in the policy is really confusing.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

It's even a little schizophrenic.

I'll move on to another topic.

Ms. Long, in your work, have you noticed that IRCC was ill-prepared when an international crisis like the Ukrainian crisis, the Afghan crisis, or even the earthquake in Haiti occurred? Unfortunately, this directly affects the timelines. During the Afghan crisis, between 15% and 25% of IRCC staff were sent to deal only with the files related to what was happening in Afghanistan.

In your opinion, shouldn't IRCC have an emergency mechanism that it can put in place quickly, rather than being caught off guard every time there is an international crisis?