Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 8th, 2022

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Mr. Basiri, you mentioned artificial intelligence. We've heard from different witnesses some concerns with that, with the different key words that are used and things like that.

Could you expand a little bit more on that? Is there opportunity for artificial intelligence in decision-making to actually hurt the system—to penalize, to introduce racism and things like that? What have you seen that way?

[Martin Basiri]

From what I read about the case, we don't have that much information about the Chinook system. It seems like it's an Excel file and I don't think it's a real AI. AI can be extremely useful. For something like a student visa, it must be a very good AI. It can be transparent. I don't see any harm.

Of course, it's a computer, so you need to program it correctly, but if transparency is the intention, it can be done very well. We are doing it on every subject, like in health care. It works across the world, so I don't know why it shouldn't work here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Mr. El-Khoury.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses.

My first question is for Mr. Basiri.

Mr. Basiri, based on your experience, which I consider to be exemplary, can you tell us what role institutions play in detecting and preventing all types of fraud? Also, how can institutions combat fraud in order to improve how we manage international study permit application processing and bring up acceptance rates?

[Martin Basiri]

The relationship between the students, the universities and IRCC is like a triangle. All of the material should be somehow shared between them, so what the students share with the university is the same story they are sharing for a visa and vice versa. When the university shares a document with the students, it should be verifiable by the IRCC

Right now we can see that things like letters of acceptance or the receipts for tuition fee payment are being created fraudulently in different markets. Universities and colleges can stop this literally immediately. I think that in the market, universities are saying it's not their problem; it's IRCC's problem. Then IRCC probably has so many other things on its shoulders that it has to address that this might not be the thing.

I think something like that can be just a push from IRCC. It could literally be just a tweet that says that by 2024 we want it one hundred per cent eliminated, so the whole industry then goes after eliminating the fraud. There are so many products out there that can serve this, but universities normally have a lack of will because they say it's not their problem; it's IRCC's problem. If IRCC doesn't do anything about it, why should they do anything about it?

Not every single problem has to be solved by IRCC. Sometimes they have to come out and just state the vision, so the whole industry will go after that.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

My second question is for both Ms. Amyot and Ms. Nord.

Can you speak to factors that may lead applicants to provide fraudulent documents? How can we address this issue? Do institutions have a responsibility to ensure that they work with consultants who are not facilitating fraud in this student permit application process?

[Denise Amyot]

In fact, we did a pilot project in Dakar. The key to ensuring there's no fraudulent behaviour is to ensure that there's constant communications between both the IRCC and the institutions. The pilot was live; it was in real time. This allowed us to ensure that there were no fraudulent acts identified. It was quite successful, but it was a pilot and that's the problem.

We need to ensure that there are more mechanisms by which the sharing of information is important, as well as transparency. This is very key. We have seen in the past that when we work together hand in hand, not only do we not have fraudulent activities, but the level of approval for students is greater, which is one of the issues that we have right now in the system.

Chinook is another problem. We could talk about it after.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Ms. Nord, does the Canadian Chamber of Commerce play a role? When students come here, do you have a responsibility to help them? Can you speak to that, please?

[Leah Nord]

There is no direct role. I'm not intimately familiar with the Chinook system. As to the other comments that have been made, I do appreciate the concerns with AI and AI bias, but we've got plenty of examples from the business community, and even examples with immigration programs throughout the world, that when the algorithm and the process is done right, it actually eliminates the bias. It does involve getting it right, and there are examples out there, but I would encourage harnessing AI for good.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Basiri, you mentioned that Canada played a key role during the pandemic and that production was pretty good. What do you think of the program for international students and how the process is managed?

[Martin Basiri]

Madam Chair, do I have time to respond?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

No, time is up. We will have to proceed to our next member.

We will now proceed to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, for six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm so grateful to the witnesses who are with us today for this important study that is very near and dear to all of our hearts. I really enjoyed your opening remarks, particularly Mr. Basiri, who told us about the dual intent criterion.

Ms. Amyot, you went a little further, even suggesting a program that would tie study permits in with the labour market once the student graduates. You're saying that it's completely absurd to deny a study permit to a foreign student simply because they may not return to their country after graduation. Is that what you're saying?

[Denise Amyot]

Absolutely. We can't say that international students are our best immigrants because they have studied in Canada and gained Canadian work experience, and then deny them a study permit on the grounds that they may not return to their country after they finish their studies because they aren't married. That simply makes no sense.

As Ms. Nord pointed out, we know that Canada is dealing with a significant labour shortage right now in all sectors and across all regions of the country. International students are part of the solution. So it's urgent that we rectify this issue.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You represent a number of post-secondary institutions in Quebec and Canada. I don't know if you've had the opportunity to hear what was said last week at a meeting of this committee, when a witness representing students outside Quebec explained to us that francophone international students were told that their studies in French outside Quebec weren't valid. Were you flabbergasted like I was?

[Denise Amyot]

Yes, absolutely. That's unacceptable, much like when international students with a university degree who want to come and study at one of our colleges or CEGEPs are told it's strange that they would want to study at a college when they have already studied at a university.

We know that Canadians are even doing it, and increasingly so, to make sure that what they study is relevant to the job market.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Exactly. In that case, is Quebec not being penalized because of its post-secondary education system, which is different from the rest of Canada? I understand that you represent institutions across the country, but I see that Quebec may be at a disadvantage because of the CEGEP system. It may be misunderstood by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. Would you agree?

[Denise Amyot]

Actually, students don't experience discrimination because the system is different in Quebec, for we musn't forget that CEGEPs offer both qualified pre-university programs and vocational and technical training. International students who come to study in Quebec often do vocational and technical training.

I will give you an example. In Matane, were it not for international students, who make up about 50% of the student body, the programs could not be offered to local students who have lived there for generations.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That is akin to what we're currently experiencing in Saint‑Félicien too. In fact, the situation is quite commonplace in the region.

[Denise Amyot]

Exactly.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Amyot. I hope I will have the opportunity to ask you more questions.

[Denise Amyot]

Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Basiri, you appear to be a computer whiz. I heard you talk about the Chinook program earlier. Could a bias against francophone students from Africa predate Chinook, and could the program have helped crystallize this inequality?

[Martin Basiri]

I studied the last six years of visas. I did this from 2016 to 2018 and 2019 to 2021. It showed that the francophone Africa visa rate went from 29.5% to 26.6% during this time, after the IRCC adopted this, and the rest of Africa went from 26% to 25%. Francophone countries during the last three years compared with the three years prior grew 64% in terms of the total number of applicants. The rest of Africa grew only 32%. Both of them are better than when you look at the total world data.

I'm a technologist. I'm not a politician. The data doesn't suggest any discrimination against francophone Africa versus other African countries. In fact, if you want to find it in terms of other countries, you should look at the Middle East. Their visa rates really came down and their growth is really lagging, even though in Middle Eastern countries their development and GDP growth are going up.

I didn't find any particular data about francophone versus the rest of Africa that can say there's discrimination. That being said, a 26% visa rate is very bad.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

However, countries like Cameroon and Senegal have seen refusal rates as high as 88%. We may not have the same numbers, but if Iran's refusal rate is 48% and Senegal's is 88%, I find that's a big difference between the two.