Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Jan. 30th, 2023

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you, colleagues. I will be brief.

Madam Chair, I would like to make a clarification and perhaps find a consensus among our colleagues.

Is this motion meant to confirm the dates that were previously proposed? Perhaps we can give some latitude to the ministers to appear before this committee as their schedule permits between now and the end of the session?

I would like to understand that. I don't think anyone here is refuting or questioning the importance of the Afghan motion and the fact that we need to hear from the ministers. However, we do not have control over their schedule. I know it took a long time for this meeting to be confirmed. Early this month, we didn't know exactly when this committee was going to meet. I believe it wasn't until two weeks before Parliament resumed that we received the meeting schedule.

Would we agree that the proposed schedule should be subject to the ministers' availability to give them the best possible opportunity to appear before us? I do not think it is reasonable to ask ministers or a parliamentarian to appear on a specific date. I would like to see a consensus among my colleagues to at least leave it up to the ministers to find a date in their schedule to appear. I think we all agree that that's important.

I am concerned that, if they are asked to appear on a specific date, as we had proposed, it will not work. We have no control over a minister's schedule.

So I would like to get some consensus and feel an openness to this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Lalonde.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

First of all, I want to reassure my colleague, and hopefully ease her concerns.

The motion moved by Ms. Kwan does not specify a date. However, it does require that we get confirmation by Friday. So—this will answer my colleague Mr. Shafqat—we are giving them an opportunity to appear before reporting to the House. We are giving them a week. That's fantastic. They have the whole week, from Monday to Friday, to give us confirmation, and there is no specific date mentioned. On the other hand, we want confirmation on when they will have chosen to come to the committee to testify.

So I think that what I just said should reassure my Liberal colleagues. Therefore, I think we should all vote in favour of Ms. Kwan's motion, which is a reasonable motion that would bring this wonderful committee to a consensus.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We now have Mr. Kmiec and then Mr. Dhaliwal.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Yes, Madam Chair, I was just going to add that I support the motion, obviously because basically the idea that I had is just to compel them in some manner to decide when they will appear, so it's not an optional thing to do. It's a very reasonable motion. It doesn't tell them when they're supposed to appear. They're just supposed to inform us of the date that they're picking to appear before the committee. Should they fail to do that, we're basically asking for the House to be made aware of it so the House itself can act upon it.

This has been done many times, either when witnesses refuse to appear and you really want their testimony before the committee so you can put it into the record, or when they make it difficult by cancelling out or saying their schedule is very busy. We're all very busy. We all have busy schedules, but accountability works. Ministers are accountable to Parliament. This committee was created by Parliament to hold ministers accountable.

Accountability flows down to us. We're not accountable to the ministers. That's not the way it's supposed to work. It's based on what our schedule says and when our meetings are, which have been designated by the whips' offices and by the House, and the ministers should find the time in their schedules to make themselves available.

I know ministers are very busy. They know parliamentary committees will ask them to appear. They've known since October that, at some point in the future, they would be asked to appear before this committee to explain themselves on Afghanistan and what happened there. Then there's an outcome for all these refugees and displaced persons all over the world who are looking to come to Canada.

It's just part of that accountability and transparency work that we're trying to get done. At the very minimum, this is a very reasonable motion. We're not immediately reporting to the House that they failed to reply and failed to satisfy this committee, but that they simply made it difficult to do our work, that they're frustrating the work of this committee by making it difficult to schedule it with our calendars. I don't care about their calendars. I care about the calendar of this committee to make sure we can fulfill our work plan.

As I said before, we have only four free meetings thus far, which will make it very difficult to ensure that we can also look at all the spending plans of the government, both for the end of the past fiscal year and for the next fiscal year. I think it's an infinitely reasonable motion. We're giving the ministers a last chance to give us a date when they'll appear with their officials.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Kmiec.

Go ahead, Mr. Dhaliwal.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Again, I just want to make sure every member of the committee on the other side understands that members on this side fully support the study and fully support the idea that Ms. Kwan has on the importance for this committee to study this important issue on Afghanistan. In fact, as I said, many of us worked together on the committee on Afghanistan, and we did not have a single issue when it came to the appearances of the ministers or the witnesses.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Mr. Redekopp, from two different parties, both said that we are willing to accommodate. We just want to give them the dates, but not as Marie-France said, to postpone it to the end of the session. It should be in the near future. They should be able to give us those dates.

We as members are also willing to work, as this is not an important issue for only one party or one member. It is an important issue, a humanitarian issue, and it concerns, I'm sure, every single riding and every single member in this room. Every single member in Parliament believes in the same cause.

I think we should put this to an end and let me work on this, and I'm sure, Madam Chair, that you and the clerk along with the ministers will be able to figure out the schedule by the end of Friday, so I appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal. It's really an important issue, and I want to reiterate also that it's a very important issue for me, and I want to thank you for all the work you did as the chair of the special committee on Afghanistan. I think there were five of us from this committee who were sitting on that committee. We did some very important work, and it's an issue that is important to me also, personally.

Now we will proceed to Ms. Rempel Garner.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I can't wrap my head around this notion that somehow the ministers are too busy to appear at a parliamentary committee after having months of notice. Their entire existence is predicated on Parliament's holding them to account for their spending, for their actions.

It's actually their number one job to come to this committee. I think Ms. Kwan's motion makes so much sense, because when you think about the severity of the bungling on Canada's Afghan response, to have the Minister of Global Affairs or the Minister of Defence say, I'm sorry, I'm a little busy to be held to account while there are countless people who have been failed by our response to this.... I just really hope colleagues understand that again, even though you might have a political stripe that you are attached to, our job here is to hold the government to account. We have to be parliamentarians first.

I say to my colleagues who are part of the governing party—you guys—that it is completely unacceptable for a minister to not show up to this committee and not make an effort to attend. In fact, I would argue there are many Liberals in this room who could be cabinet ministers and who would probably avail themselves of such an opportunity. To hide from this committee, to not make themselves available.... Yes, of course Ms. Kwan's motion makes sense. We should be seeking remedy for that. We should be holding them to account for their recalcitrance and bad behaviour. It's not for us; it's on behalf of the people we're trying to serve with immigration policy through Afghanistan.

I just find it completely unconscionable that we have the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mélanie Joly, just completely reluctant to come to this committee.

Who is the Minister of Defence?

It's Anita Anand. Right.

What's to hide? If it's such a great response, come on over. Let's talk about it. The reality is they need to be here. There's nothing more important than this committee. If they do not come, I believe we should summon them.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Next is Ms. Kwan.

I just wanted to let the members know that I wanted to discuss the travel plans also today. If we have to travel, we have to submit to the liaison no later than February 8. In case we don't come up to that discussion today, we will have to have a subcommittee meeting to have that discussion. I just wanted to lay that out.

Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I appreciate the committee member's comments in support of the motion I moved. The intent here is to really light a fire under the ministers by way of response.

You know, the reality is this. They were invited prior to the holiday break on four occasions. They did not come, except for the Minister of Immigration, who offered to come. Because of supplementary estimates, we had to change our schedule accordingly.

In the new year, the clerk has just reported to us that four dates were offered to these ministers and they did not take them up. It's not like they haven't had a chance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I just want to clarify.

It's not that four dates or four options were given to the ministers. We selected four dates and each minister was given one date. It's not like every minister was given four options. The clerk started to work with their offices once we had the schedule of the committee.

Yes, we made one request in December. The second request was made in January. Each minister was given one date. I want to clarify that.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Okay.

We're now, Madam Chair, expanding the number of dates that we're giving to them. In fact, our whole schedule is open. We'll accommodate them, but they need to confirm with us by Friday on a specific date of our schedule on when they can show up. If they don't, we'll report this matter to the House. We have to get on with it. We can't just keep lingering around as though the lives of the people who depend on the actions of parliamentarians and the government don't matter.

I don't believe that's the case. As you indicated, Madam Chair, a number of us sat on the Special Committee on Afghanistan. We worked really hard at that committee. We heard witnesses on that committee. The situation has not improved. In fact, if anything the situation has gotten worse. It's more urgent than ever that we get on with it.

I appreciate the committee member's support. Let's hope we get some dates and get these ministers before us so we can move forward with this file.

Madam Chair, after this, I just want to flag for the committee by way of scheduling issues that the committee also passed a motion to invite the Minister of Immigration to come before the committee on the levels plan. That is also important. I just don't want to forget it. I noted on the draft schedule that's been sent around that it does not show up anywhere. We just need to make sure we don't forget it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

I have two more people on the speaking list: Mr. Redekopp and then Mr. El-Khoury.

Go ahead, Mr. Redekopp.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I wanted to clarify something with everybody. The reason Ms. Kwan had to put this forward is, I think, a core issue of trust. We've asked these ministers to come here a couple of times and they haven't.

What I thought would have been reasonable is for the minister to say, “I can't come that day, but I would suggest that I come this day.” That would, to me, be something that I could accept as an act of good faith. They literally can't come. I could believe that, because they'd say they could come on another date. However, what they've said instead is just, “I can't come.” I think that has caused us to not trust them, and that's the whole reason this motion is coming up.

For the Minister of Defence, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Justice, that is the issue here. We don't trust the fact they're going to come at all. That's why we need to bring this forward and we need to have some mechanism we can use to try to compel them.

I would like to amend this motion. It's very minor.

At the very end, it says “report...to the House”. I'm thinking, why “report...to the House”? I've come up with the words “so appropriate measures can be taken”, to give a bit more purpose to why we're reporting it to the House. We're not reporting it to the House for everybody to hear it; we want actions to be taken. We're not telling the House what to do; we're saying, “so appropriate measures can be taken”.

I would like to move that amendment. Maybe that's a friendly amendment we can all agree to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Redekopp.

Mr. Redekopp has moved an amendment. Now we have an amendment on the floor.

Next on the speaking list is Mr. El-Khoury.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Through you, I would like to ask our colleague Ms. Kwan if there is a written version of her motion. I think it is in the best interest of this committee that all of its members receive a written copy.

Can it be provided to us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. El-Khoury.

Ms. Kwan, please send your motion to the clerk so that it can be distributed to the members.

We have an amendment on the floor, which was moved by Mr. Redekopp.

Go ahead, Ms. Lalonde.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the written motion, but on the amendment, maybe my colleague, through you, Madam Chair, could clarify what he means. I was trying to “report to the House”, and I still missed the other portion that he's asking.

What exactly does he mean by this? Could he clarify?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Redekopp.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The specific words are report to the House “so appropriate measures can be taken”. The reason for that is to make it very clear to the House that we, as a committee, expect them to do something. We're not telling them what to do. They can figure that out themselves.

We're not just telling them this for their information; we would like them to do something.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Redekopp.

Go ahead, Mr. El-Khoury.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I don't think, Madam Chair, we can tell the House what to do. We report to the House, and then it's up to the House to decide what kinds of measures have to be taken.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Go ahead, Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

A written version of the motion is available in English only, which we have sent to the clerk. I apologize. This motion was unanticipated from the perspective of the schedule. I did not think the answer coming back would be that none of these ministers would be available, which is what propelled us to move forward.

If I could ask the clerk's office to ensure that the motion is in both languages and provided to committee members, I would appreciate it. I apologize for that.

With respect to the amendment, I am good with either. I am good with making clear the intention. That was my original approach to it. I was told by the clerk that it's best to leave it to say that it's reported to the House, and that it would be understood. I respected that and accepted that.

I'm good with it either way. I thank Mr. Redekopp for offering the amendment to indicate the seriousness of the situation, and I'm hopeful that action will be taken by the ministers so that we don't, in fact, have to go to this length. I would rather not have to do that. I would rather they just showed up.