Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

For anyone beyond that, you would say it's not problematic to have those persons excluded. It would only be for the small cohort this bill is trying to address.

[Nicole Girard]

There is a second clause in the bill that's seeking to move the first-generation limit for those born abroad in the first generation. Again, there are concerns with that provision in the bill because it's addressing only those born between 2009 and 2015. It's not addressing those born beyond June 2015. Members of the committee, we've noted, have expressed concern about the lack of a mechanism to address those. It's also a concern that we have noted in the submissions by stakeholders who have made representations to this committee.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Right, but I think the narrowness of the bill, as I said, is part of the reason we're here. A lot of parliamentarians like shorter bills that are easier to understand. I recognize this is not an easy piece of legislation. Every time Parliament has tried to amend the act, it's usually fallen short and we have created new lost Canadians.

If the bill sails through in the form it is right now, what is the estimated number of new lost Canadians that would be created? You said there would be new lost Canadians as a result.

[Nicole Girard]

I don't think we're in a position to estimate how many untold numbers of Canadians were born abroad since 2009 who could, in the future, become lost Canadians as a result of the bill as drafted, but it is a concern that could be addressed by amendments at the committee stage.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It's just a possibility. There's no data that the department holds, having done a review of the bill, of a projection of possible lost Canadians who might apply in the future or come to parliamentarians to ask them to change the law again to cover them. There's no data...?

[Nicole Girard]

What I'm saying is that the bill as drafted would convert some persons who were granted citizenship since 2009 to become automatic citizens by operation of law under the bill as drafted. This would remove their ability to pass on citizenship to their children who may be born abroad in the future, thereby creating more lost Canadians.

That is a definite scenario. How many could be impacted in terms of untold numbers of the future is not something we're able to estimate at this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you. The time is up for Mr. Kmiec.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kayabaga.

Ms. Kayabaga, you will have six minutes. You can begin, please.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to start by thanking our officials for taking the time to come and answer questions on this really important bill.

I'm going to go to questions around section 8 because it's a very complex issue. I want to make sure that we can all leave this room understanding exactly what we're talking about and which lost Canadians this bill is going to provide a remedy for.

In your presentation earlier, you described people who, under the old rules, were essentially stripped of their citizenship at age 28 if they didn't successfully apply to keep it. To me, this sounds like there are actually two groups still left out, due to the age 28 rule: one group that never applied, likely because they didn't know they needed to, and another group that did apply but were not successful because they didn't meet the criteria.

Is that correct?

[Nicole Girard]

Yes, that's correct.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

If these two groups are under the former age 28 rule, will they both see their citizenship restored if S-245 is passed?

[Nicole Girard]

The only group that would benefit would be those who never applied for whatever reason. The group that the bill doesn't include are those who applied and, for whatever reason, were not successful.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

If only one of the groups is included in this bill, could this be considered an inequality? Would this open up a potential legal challenge for the government?

[Nicole Girard]

I don't want to speculate on the form in which the bill could be passed with or without amendment by the committee, but it would create differential treatment by those affected by those former section 8 provisions. In that, you are correct.

From the perspective of the experts at this table, we'd like to recommend for the committee's consideration that all of those groups affected by the former section 8 have an opportunity to be remedied, but it would require an amendment to the bill.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

To your knowledge, how many people do you think are in the group of people who lost their citizenship due to the former age 28 rule? How many of those people would be captured in this bill as currently written, without the amendments?

[Nicole Girard]

It's difficult for the department to know exactly what that number would be since we only have data with regard to people who come forward and apply.

Currently, those who lost citizenship under the former section 8 provisions can come forward and apply for something called a discretionary grant of citizenship under subsection 5(4) of the Citizenship Act. A small number of those persons come forward every year to obtain a grant. I have a statistic here but I have to take off my glasses so that I can share it with the committee. Since 2014, 130 persons affected by the former section 8 received a discretionary grant of citizenship under 5(4).

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

These questions are going to be around the first-generation limit.

I'd like to better understand how the first-generation limit rule is applied and what the 2019 coming into the force date means in practice. Does that date only apply to certain people, depending on whether they were born before or after 2009, or did the rule apply to everyone, as of that date, regardless of when they were born?

[Nicole Girard]

It is the latter. The rule is applying to everyone as of 2009. What it means is that for children born abroad after that date in 2009, they will be Canadian from birth automatically if they have one parent who was born in Canada or one parent who immigrated to Canada and became a citizen before their birth.

If it's their grandparent who falls under one of those categories, then they are considered the second generation born abroad and they are not automatically citizens from birth. Their avenue to citizenship is through the permanent resident process, followed by a grant of citizenship.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay.

I would like you to elaborate on something that I found very surprising in your presentation. You said that Bill S‑245 seemingly looks to push the application date of the first-generation limit from 2009 to 2015.

Can you add some comments to that?

[Nicole Girard]

I'm sorry. Does the member have a specific question in that regard?

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

I just want you to elaborate on that.

[Nicole Girard]

As I mentioned in my remarks, pushing out the date of the application of the first-generation limit from 2009 to 2015 will essentially seek to delay the implementation of the first-generation limit to the later date. That means that those born abroad in the second generation or beyond—before 2015—will automatically be citizens from birth.

Previously—since 2009—they would have had to obtain a grant of citizenship, and those who are granted citizenship have the ability to automatically pass on citizenship to their future children born abroad.

With the bill converting those people to become automatically citizens from birth, that means they're then impacted by the first-generation limit and can no longer do so. That means that, if they have children born abroad in the future, they'll be considered second generation and, potentially, lost Canadians, as I mentioned in my remarks—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up. The six minutes have passed.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

Please begin.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Girard, thank you for your very solid presentation.

I have a few questions for you.

Can you tell us what is happening right now to lost Canadians? Do they have to leave Canada?

[Nicole Girard]

Some people have experienced the impact of former section 8 of the Citizenship Act, which automatically caused them to lose their Canadian citizenship. They were actually living in Canada and did not know that this provision applied to them. They may have found out when they renewed a passport or something like that. As I mentioned, there is a discretionary grant of citizenship under subsection 5(4) of the Citizenship Act. Under that subsection, and in those circumstances, people can apply to regain their citizenship. Since 2014, I think, almost 130 people have regained their Canadian citizenship after automatically losing it.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Forgive me for not being as expert as you on the topic, but did I understand correctly that, when you lose your citizenship, you have 30 days to leave Canada? Is that in the act or is it not necessarily the case?