Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 22nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I call meeting number 55 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, October 7, 2022, today we continue our study of the government's response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan.

We welcome the Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the officials, to the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Thank you, Minister, for joining us today. We really appreciate your time.

She's also joined by Global Affairs officials Weldon Epp, assistant deputy minister for Asia; Julie Sunday, assistant deputy minister, consular security and emergency management; Jennifer Loten, director general, international crime and terrorism; and Stephen Salewicz, director general, international humanitarian assistance.

I welcome you all in appearing before the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Minister Joly, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks. Then we will go into rounds of questioning. You can please begin.

[The Honourable Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Mélanie Joly]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues. I am happy to see you today.

It has been nearly a year since I appeared before the Special Committee on Afghanistan and more than nine months since the committee submitted its report. Our government is very grateful for the work done by this committee. That is why we gave detailed responses to the recommendations in October, and also why I am pleased that your committee is going forward with a study on what we have done today.

This is a coordinated effort on the part of several ministers, including myself, the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, the Minister of International Development, the Minister of Public Safety, the Minister of National Defence, and the Minister of Justice.

I'm here today to speak to the progress made by Global Affairs Canada with respect to implementing and acting on the foreign affairs related recommendations made by the Special Committee on Afghanistan in its final report. I want to highlight areas where we have focused our efforts since the tabling of the government response.

My department continues to support Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada in its commitment to settle at least 40,000 Afghan refugees in Canada.

For the foreseeable future, securing safe passage out of Afghanistan remains challenging. There is a lack of safe, secure and reliable routes out of the country. Conditions are unstable. The requirements for entry and exit documentation are constantly changing. In spite of the unique and complex challenges, we are working at the diplomatic level with governments inclined to find solutions, such as Pakistan, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, in order to fulfil Canada's resettlement commitment.

In addition to our diplomatic efforts, we are also continuing to work with our non-governmental partners to address these challenges.

Our government, like all Canadians, remains deeply concerned over the worsening humanitarian situation in Afghanistan. Alongside the Afghan Canadian community, we have watched the heart-wrenching situation unfold in Afghanistan as the Afghan people endure continued hardship. I know that they are present in families' hearts as they celebrate Nowruz.

Many have undergone harrowing journeys to flee the country, and countless others are living in fear of persecution. Canadians have opened their hearts to help so many of these people rebuild their lives in Canada.

The hard-fought gains in democracy, education, human rights and women's rights have deteriorated in the aftermath of the fall of Afghanistan. The Taliban is increasingly restricting the rights and freedoms of Afghan women and girls to learn, to work and simply to participate in public life.

We all have a duty to stand up in support of the Afghan people and we call on the Taliban to honour their human rights obligations, but let me be clear: Canada has no intention of recognizing the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan and will continue to judge the Taliban by their actions and not by their words.

We are committed to supporting the urgent needs of Afghanistan's most vulnerable people, particularly women and girls, and we continue to advocate strongly for Afghan women and girls at every opportunity, both on our own and as part of a strong, coordinated effort by the international community.

Last month I convened, at the Munich Security Conference, my fellow women foreign ministers, and we strongly condemned the Taliban's restriction on women and girls. When the Taliban banned women from working for national and international NGOs and later from attending universities, we stood with international partners in opposition.

My G7 counterparts and I have kept this issue on the agenda and continue to discuss the ways in which we continue our support. I've raised women's rights in Afghanistan in bilateral discussions with many of my colleagues, including those from the U.K., France, New Zealand, Pakistan and the United States.

Our government has also provided more than $143 million in funding to help provide emergency assistance in Afghanistan and neighbouring countries, and we know that Canadians want to help as well. That's why my colleague Marco Mendicino has introduced an amendment to the Criminal Code that would help Canadian organizations better deliver their vital humanitarian and human rights work in Afghanistan. I would also like to thank the many organizations that have provided input to make sure that this initiative moves forward.

The changes balance two important needs: strong anti-terrorism financing provisions and the ability to legally deliver international assistance to people in need in places under the de facto control of terrorist organizations such as Afghanistan.

In conclusion, the government is committed to implementing and acting on the recommendations made in the report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan. It also reiterates its support for the people of Afghanistan and remains determined to challenge the Taliban on their abuse of power.

Thank you for your attention.

I will be pleased to take questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now proceed with our first round of questioning, and we will begin with Mr. Chong.

Mr. Chong, you have six minutes. Please begin.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, thank you for appearing.

Two years ago, the government committed to bringing 40,000 Afghans to Canada. In addition, the government has always professed to view foreign policy through a feminist lens. Despite all of these things, the commitment was to bring 40,000 over, but only 27,000 have been brought over. The commitment was to view foreign policy through a feminist lens, but, in the passage of two years, many Afghans continue to languish in Afghanistan, particularly Afghans to whom we have a duty. Just several weeks ago, a former female Afghan lawmaker by the name of Mursal Nabizada was shot dead by gunmen in Kabul. Eight other women who are former Afghan lawmakers are still trapped in Afghanistan.

My question is simple. Will you commit to bringing these Afghan women here before they are killed?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

First and foremost, of course we remain extremely preoccupied by the security situation in Afghanistan, and we've been committing to making sure that we achieve the 40,000 Afghan refugees target. At this point, as you know, we're at nearly 30,000. Again last night, more than 360 Afghans landed in Canada from Pakistan.

We will continue to make sure that we are able to get these Afghan people to Canada. At the same time, I would say, dear colleague and dear Michael, that my job is to make sure that I can also work with third countries, in the sense that my job is to reach out to Pakistan, work with them and work with the UAE and Qatar to facilitate the arrival of these Afghan people to Canada.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you. I have another question, and it relates to the evacuation of Kabul in 2021.

Your department is the lead entity. How would you assess your department's performance in the evacuation operation that took place in August 2021?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Listen, I can't turn back the clock. I commend the public servants who worked very hard at the time, 24-7. I think we learned a lot from what happened. Under my watch, we were able to get more funding for consular affairs—$100 million over six years—and we also got funding to establish a very important crisis unit to deal with this issue.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Well, Minister, that assessment is not.... The department's and the government's view seems to be that everything went really well during that evacuation. In fact, I quote will from the government's response to the Special Committee on Afghanistan's report:

With respect to the crisis in Afghanistan...the Department of National Defence/Canadian Armed Forces...established an effective and efficient working relationship with GAC and the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada...which allowed for the safe evacuation of nearly 3,700 evacuees from Kabul....

That assessment is troubling, because it is wrong. We heard from dozens of witnesses who said that the evacuation from Kabul was an uncoordinated mess.

Retired Major-General Dean Milner indicated that bureaucracy at Immigration Canada and leadership coordination issues made it very difficult for the Afghan strategic evacuation team to support and assist the mission.

Wendy Long, who is the director of Afghan-Canadian Interpreters, said the following in reference to the IRCC, Global Affairs Canada and the Department of National Defence:

All...have to work effectively [there], and that's not what was happening all along. There was no effective partnership. They were not looking at it as a mission that all three entities should have been taking part in for the end goal of getting our people to Canada.

It's troubling that the government views the evacuation and interdepartmental coordination as a success when the facts say otherwise. It's all not supported by the fact that we evacuated far fewer people proportionately than did our allies. We evacuated 3,700 people to the end of August of that year. The United States evacuated 122,000 people, and the United Kingdom evacuated 15,000 people. On a pro rata basis, by U.S. standards we should have evacuated 12,000 people. We evacuated 3,700. By U.K. standards we should have evacuated 10,000 people. We evacuated 3,700.

I guess my point is that if the department and the government are not willing to acknowledge that the evacuation from Kabul and from Afghanistan in general was a disaster, then in future crises nothing will change. We'll continue to repeat the same kinds of mistakes.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you for your question. It's a very relevant question.

As I mentioned in regard to your earlier questions, I think we learned a lot from what happened at the time in Afghanistan. Based on that, we have been dealing also with very difficult situations since then. We've been able to draw some lessons from what happened to always react better. Nobody's perfect around this table, and I think we can always do a better job. That's what we've been committed to do. To get there, we need to have the right resources. That's why I am pleased that in the last budget we got more funding.

As well, I think we all have to remind ourselves that at the time, CAF members had left Kabul many years earlier, which was not necessarily the case for our allies, who had more military assets and resources on the ground at the time.

All of that is to say that I think your work is important, because that's what you're doing—you're shedding light on what happened and how we can make sure that things go better going forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Dhaliwal, the floor is yours for six minutes. Please begin.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, first of all, I would like to commend and thank the honourable minister for all the hard work she does and for her accessibility and willingness to have conversations on issues that matter most to Canadians.

Thank you, Minister.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Minister, in your statement you mentioned Afghan women and girls, and of course Mr. Chong touched on that subject as well. I'm sure it's very near and dear to all of us as committee members. At the Special Committee on Afghanistan, we heard the same troubling stories in testimony from witnesses about what was happening to women and girls in Afghanistan. At that time, there were reports that schools were being closed, that women could not travel without a male escort and that school curricula were all based on religion, with no academics.

I would like to hear from you, Minister, about some of the things Canada is doing to address this situation.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thanks to you and your colleague for this important question.

Listen, to say the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan is dire is an understatement. I know all of you have been preoccupied with this. You've raised this situation, and it's been a top priority. Meanwhile, there have been so many crises in the world that we need to continue to shed light on what's going on in Afghanistan. If we don't continue to inform the Canadian public about this, we will not be able to make sure that people outside Afghanistan are aware of what's going on.

When I was at the UN in New York with Secretary-General Guterres recently, we talked about it. We invested nearly $150 million to support women and girls in Afghanistan. Our colleague, Minister Sajjan, has been laser-focused on this. At the same time, we need to make sure we continue to help the organizations providing that help.

Because of our legislation and the Criminal Code dispositions, we've been working, as of now, through the UN and the Red Cross. We think that with Bill C-41 going through the House quickly—thank you all for your support on that—we can work with more organizations that may have even greater support on the ground in getting help to women and girls.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

You mentioned Bill C-41, which was recently introduced by the government and supported by all of us here. This legislation would alter some of the terrorism provisions that have blocked Canadian humanitarian agencies and people from going to help people in Afghanistan.

Could you please comment on why this legislation is required to address the challenges we are facing in getting aid to Afghanistan?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes. This section of the Criminal Code was voted on, I think, after we and NATO got involved in Afghanistan, back in that time. Never did we think a terrorist organization would become a government in Afghanistan, which, of course, we don't recognize and will never legitimize. That's why, on hearing what Alexis, Michelle, you and others—and many organizations—have done, we knew it was important to come up with these amendments, and it's why we were able to draw a good balance between, on the one hand, making sure we're taking a very strong approach when it comes to countering terrorism and not funding any terrorist organizations, and, on the other hand, providing the aid required on the ground, particularly to women and girls.

The more we're able to work together to get this right, the better a job we'll do.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

You have one minute on the mike. I'm going to keep my question short.

Would you like to comment on what the government is doing currently on the matters of food insecurity and poverty in Afghanistan? What have you done with other international partners?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

The situation in Afghanistan continues to deteriorate. Things are not going better. Food security is definitely an issue. The economy has collapsed. People are living in extreme poverty. Many of them are going to other countries to flee the situation, which is completely intolerable.

Our goal has been to work with the UN, and particularly with the World Food Programme, to help get funding through to people on the ground in Afghanistan. Canada is one of the biggest donors to the World Food Programme, and we'll continue to increase our support, as we did this year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal. Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, the floor is yours. You will have six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here today, Minister. I know you have a full schedule, given the visit of the President of the United States and other matters. Your being here is very important to us.

I am going to talk a lot about Bill C‑41, since the subject it deals with was my particular cause on the Special Committee on Afghanistan. All of the ministers who testified there agreed with me. In fact, you also testified publicly that the Criminal Code provisions limited Canadian humanitarian aid in Afghanistan.

One year ago, almost to the day, I introduced a motion in the House calling for unanimous consent, but the motion was rejected by the government, even though all the ministers were in favour of it when they appeared before the committee.

Non-governmental organizations, or NGOs, will have to obtain a recommendation from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and, in some cases, from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, in addition to receiving authorization from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. Bill C‑41 means that three departments are involved when it comes to the work done by NGOs.

Do you not think that it might take a long time for NGOs to get the necessary authorizations? If so, about how much time do you think it would take?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you for your question.

It essentially comes back to the question my colleague asked me about how we can strike a balance. The goal was to continue taking an extremely strict approach, to combat any form of terrorist organization funding, while ensuring we were able to support organizations doing development aid work.

At present, our objective is to bring Bill C‑41 forward in order for it to become law. I will also take this opportunity to thank everyone, because it seems that it has been introduced in the House of Commons. As well, the House has just adopted a unanimous motion, and that is good news.

My colleagues, the Minister of International Development and the Minister of Public Safety, will ensure that these organizations are given authorizations. We are prepared to hear comments from the organizations so that we can ensure, for example, that the authorization is continued. In other words, we have to make sure there isn't too much red tape.

I understand your concern, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, and, in fact, I share it. When the bureaucracy is too complicated, decisions sometimes can't be made quickly. I will be happy to hear your recommendations and the recommendations of the international organizations.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I have spoken to Doctors Without Borders, which made a statement quickly after learning the details of Bill C‑41.

The organization is arguing in favour of a humanitarian exemption in the Criminal Code, to eliminate any risk of their staff or the organization being charged with a criminal offence. However, that organization believes that the changes to the Criminal Code do not eliminate that uncertainty. I would point out that it really is quite a credible organization.

I understand that the committee wants to do things quickly, but I want to be sure it is not wasting its time. The bill absolutely has to be passed as quickly as possible. As well, I want to be sure that all parties agree on amendments on which there will be no debate.

Can we count on the government's cooperation so we can agree on these amendments as quickly as possible, with no debate?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I will be pleased to work with the committee.

Regarding the various amendments, we will study them as they are proposed. In my opinion, the Minister of Justice is the most appropriate person to speak to the validity of the various amendments, since they relate more to legal issues.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

I would now like to come back to my initial questions.

You talked about organizations that have voiced criticisms of Bill C‑41. As I mentioned, the departments have a tendency to work in isolation. Interdepartmental relations are sometimes difficult. I have only been here for four years, but I can still observe that—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

That has not been my experience. Sometimes, things work well.