Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 22nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Sunday; time is up for Mr. Chong. You will get an opportunity in the second round.

We will proceed to MP Ali.

MP Ali, you have six minutes. You can please begin.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here to share their information and expertise with us today.

Could you tell the committee about the mechanism that is in place for coordination between Global Affairs Canada and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, both at the ministry level and locally on the ground, with respect to the Afghan situation?

[Julie Sunday]

I can speak to what's in place during a crisis, which is that Global Affairs Canada, as the lead department for international emergencies, will establish an interdepartmental task force that would have all the relevant departments at the table. In the case of Afghanistan, we met daily. This started in early July, and it went into November. It was a very, very long task force from an emergency management perspective.

During the crisis in August, we had IRCC, DND and others embedded in our emergency response team at Global Affairs Canada, so we had a whole room, a situation room, where everybody was working collaboratively.

One of the big challenges was the velocity with which the crisis hit. We had been, of course, in contingency planning for a long period of time, and at the peak, the intensity of the requests we were getting was really significant. For our part, we have an emergency watch response centre that operates 24-7. At the peak of the emergency, we were getting 70,000 emails a day. While we had 200 staff in our operations centre, it was very challenging that week.

That said, the linkages between IRCC, DND and Global Affairs were certainly forged in the lead-up to the crisis and remained in place afterward. In the phase right after the air bridge, we were focused on doing our best to get Canadian citizens out, working collaboratively with Qatar and with other partners to do that. Then it quickly moved into a phase that was very focused on the SIMs, the special immigration measures program, and Weldon's team was very actively engaged in bilateral discussions with key partners in Doha, the UAE and others to be able to facilitate ways to get out. Again, it was very challenging. Documentation was a huge issue and has been a huge issue throughout the crisis. We have all been working collaboratively to resolve these situations.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

How are Canadian consular services in countries neighbouring Afghanistan operating to help the large number of displaced Afghans?

[Julie Sunday]

This is an excellent question. We surged resources into Pakistan, Doha and Kuwait, across all of that region, to be able to support consular clients and to support our partner department, Immigration, which was working on the SIMs program, and to ensure that there was safe passage to Canada for those entitled to come.

We are able to do that. We have a standing rapid deployment team. We have individuals trained on visas for these countries, so we're able to move them very quickly into those places. They're trained in consular matters, and that was an effective way to be able to build up our capacity.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Through you, Madam Chair, over two million Afghans are externally displaced in neighbouring countries. What collaboration with the host countries is Global Affairs Canada able to provide to support this vulnerable population?

[Weldon Epp]

Thank you for the question. It's an excellent question.

In fact, the most affected neighbouring country, Pakistan, has the largest population of refugees anywhere. Some of that is very long-standing, but there was a significant surge after the fall of Kabul. The Government of Canada has been working closely with the Government of Pakistan to move forward with safe passage and transition to Canada for those who are invited through the programs that have been discussed by this committee, and also to provide support to stabilize the situation and allow the Government of Pakistan to provide for the humanitarian needs of that large community.

Of course, there are other neighbouring countries to which Afghan refugees have fled. We've worked very closely with the governments of Qatar—as the minister mentioned earlier—and the United Arab Emirates, and of course with partners, to do what we can to move forward in meeting our own tool kit and our own targets and relieve pressure while meeting, as my colleague mentioned, the necessary requirements of ensuring, for example, the biometric data, etc., that is required to facilitate.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Are there other plans for—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, MP Ali. Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

You can please begin.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to everyone for being here with us today. We greatly appreciate it.

In the Bloc Québécois, we have identified two factors going forward. I understand that Kabul has fallen. What is of considerable interest to us in the Bloc Québécois is what we are doing now, what we can do in the future, and what lessons have been learned from what happened when Kabul fell.

You said that you have had a lot of bilateral discussions with the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. You had no choice; you were in the middle of the crisis. One of the recommendations made by the Special Committee on Afghanistan called on the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to create a standing emergency system, an emergency mechanism whose buttons could be pushed quickly when an international crisis arises, be it an armed conflict or a natural disaster like the earthquake in Haiti, for example. The Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship has appeared before this committee several times. He said he had instructed his officials to create this kind of mechanism at IRCC eventually. I think you already have one at Global Affairs Canada.

Do you think it is a good idea to create this kind of mechanism?

[Weldon Epp]

I'll ask my colleague to supplement the answer in a moment.

That recommendation, in broad lines, is accepted by the government. The fact is that the existing division of labour is fairly clear. As you mentioned, Global Affairs Canada does have the lead for responding to and managing task forces for international crises. Public Safety is the lead for—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

A point of order, Madam Chair. I have no interpretation.

[Weldon Epp]

I can reprise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'll stop the clock. We can please have a look.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

It's back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Can you hear it now?

Okay, can you repeat?

[Weldon Epp]

Or I can try to answer in French.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Can you start your answer over? You can answer in English.

[Weldon Epp]

To repeat what I said, absolutely the government recognized the recommendation and partially agreed with recommendation 2. As the member mentioned, Global Affairs Canada does have the lead for response to international crises, while it's Public Safety Canada for domestic crises.

Julie can explain a little bit about how that works across the Government of Canada, but that's a pre-existing division of labour that government works with.

[Julie Sunday]

We fully support the idea of IRCC establishing an emergency response function. Afghanistan was a really good example of an international emergency that had huge domestic components as well, in that there was a massive immigration program that was being implemented.

For us, as a federal group of departments that have emergency management structures, we've been spending a lot of time looking at how we can work more seamlessly with each other and how we build that capacity. In the past year we've had a few crises. We've also had Ukraine and others. It does work. It is working very well. Afghanistan was quite unique in many ways—in the intensity, the speed and the scale.

Certainly GAC, as the international emergency lead, works very closely with domestic departments and their emergency response centres.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

If you think it is a good idea, that means it was missing when the crisis happened. We should have had this kind of emergency mechanism. We have learned the lesson and it is going to be created. That is why the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship has decided to go forward with this proposal.

Let's talk about Bill C‑41 now, the Bloc Québécois' other cause. This is extremely important to us. We are trying to work with all parties to have it passed as quickly as possible. We want us to agree not to debate the amendments. You were there when I explained this earlier.

I imagine you have examined the bill. For the information of the public, what assurance do you have that this bill will not allow terrorist groups to have access to funding? After combing through the report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan, do you feel there are enough firewalls? Will those firewalls not be a kind of obstacle to NGOs getting speedy authorization to do their work on the ground?

[Weldon Epp]

I'm going to turn to my colleague, Jennifer Loten, who is our expert on the matter.

[Jennifer Loten, Director General, International Crime and Terrorism, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

We're very committed to making sure that this amendment does two things at once. One is to protect the integrity of the Criminal Code. The intention of that is to prevent terrorist financing. The second thing is for it to have an enabling function. We don't want that first objective to overrule our capability to provide the humanitarian assistance that all Canadians want us to provide.

The protections that have been put in place are based on a couple of things, and you mentioned them earlier in your interaction. There's a public safety component of making sure we have a clear sense of what the terrorist threat on the ground is in a particular situation. The second thing is making sure that the organizations that are going to be administering Canadian funds are doing so with transparency and with the ability to manage those funds so that they're targeted toward the work they're intended to do and so that there are protections in place to make sure there is no slippage.

What the Criminal Code amendment does is protect you from violations of the Criminal Code in the event that you cannot avoid any financing of terrorist organizations through taxing or through service fees, the kinds of things that an organization cannot avoid in a situation like the one with the Taliban, which has the ability to control the environment. Canadian organizations cannot avoid some benefits flowing, but the amendment minimizes what that amount will be.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You mean checkpoints, for example.

[Jennifer Loten]

Yes.