Evidence of meeting #65 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

J. Randall Emery  Executive Director, Canadian Citizens Rights Council, As an Individual
Nicole Girard  Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

6:20 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

Madam Chair, from my hearing of the member's reading of the passage, my former colleague seemed to be commenting to the effect that the discretionary grant under subsection 5(4) is a grant, and, therefore, like any other grant, as I've mentioned, those who are recipients of a grant are able to pass on citizenship to their children born abroad.

The member is correct that what I'm saying in summary is that we believe moving the date for the first-generation limit is undesirable, because it would cause these unintended consequences of conferring automatic citizenship on untold thousands born abroad, who would then be unable to pass on citizenship to their future children born abroad, including those who have obtained a grant since 2009, because that was their main way to access citizenship's, being impacted by the first-generation limit.

Thank you.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

How many people have received a grant of citizenship from the minister or a delegate between 2009 and 2015?

6:20 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

Madam Chair, could I just clarify the question?

Is the member referring to the discretionary grants or is the member referring to grants in general? We will endeavour to obtain the statistics that are available for the committee, but I would just like to clarify the question. Thank you.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Mr. Kmiec, can you please clarify?

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

This is why I'm glad we have the officials.

If you can provide both numbers, that would be even better. If you could separate them out or make it clear if one number includes the other, that would be absolutely ideal.

I can give you maybe more specific dates. It would be the specific dates from when the first-generation rule was introduced and received royal assent in 2009, to when the Citizenship Act was changed in 2015 and royally assented to. That covered I think 600 lost Canadians in those changes.

Between those two dates and not just calendar years would be ideal: Do you believe that it would be possible to get that for the next meeting or before the next meeting?

6:20 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

Madam Chair, we will take that back and endeavour to provide statistics as soon as they can be made available, but I'm not able to say at this time how quickly we can turn that around. We will do that as quickly as we can.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

Continue, Mr. Kmiec.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I've had this one question. I'm wondering. When you get a grant of citizenship, are you obliged to do a citizenship ceremony, or is it just assumed that you have taken the oath? Is there a difference between them? When a minister or a delegate grants citizenship, is there a ceremony that is obligatory? Do you have to take the oath of citizenship, or can you bypass that requirement?

6:20 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

Typically an adult applying for citizenship is required to take the oath at a ceremony.

I just want to check with the member to see if that is answering the question, or if in fact he had a slightly different question.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Because we're talking about grants versus the right, if you get the right of citizenship, you don't have to take the oath. You're a citizen by right.

6:25 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

That's correct.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

If you get a grant of citizenship, where you have applied to the minister to obtain it, do you have to do a citizenship ceremony as well? Is the grant basically conditional on your going to take an oath in a citizenship ceremony?

Some of you are nodding your heads. Anybody can answer this. I'm not picky.

6:25 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

Yes, the final requirement that an adult citizenship applicant is required to meet is to take the oath of citizenship. That is generally done at a citizenship ceremony. That is the final step and requirement to be fulfilled before someone can be granted Canadian citizenship.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

When you do provide the data on how many grants of citizenship there were, if there is a discrepancy between those who have been given a grant by the minister but have not gone through the citizenship ceremony.... I'm sure it's going to be zero, but just in case it's not zero, if someone applied for a grant of citizenship and never actually went ahead and took an oath, they then would not be a citizen is my understanding, even though they made a grant and it was approved by the minister.

Could you separate those numbers? It would just be an extra column, really. Is that possible?

6:25 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

It's a requirement that the applicant has to fulfill and generally is not going to become a citizen until the requirement is fulfilled.

In the statistics we're able to provide, there wouldn't be any subdivision. The assumption would be that this is someone who has fulfilled their requirement, including taking an oath at a ceremony. That's what the numbers we could provide to this committee would reflect.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

You wouldn't be able to provide the total number of applications received by the minister for a grant of citizenship versus how many were actually granted the citizenship.

6:25 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

Yes, Madam Chair, for a particular time frame we could endeavour to provide this committee with applications received versus citizenship applications granted, which is ongoing. There are ceremonies all the time.

Thank you.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Mr. Kmiec.

Seeing no further debate on this, I would ask the clerk to please take the vote on G-4.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

We're now coming to G-5.

Go ahead, Ms. Lalonde.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to move amendment G-5.

I move that Bill S-245, in clause 1, be amended by adding after line 18 on page 1 the following:

(4) Section 3 of the Act is amended by adding the following after subsection (4.1): Exception — transitional provision (4.2) Subsection (3) does not apply to a person who, on the coming into force of this subsection, was a citizen. However, subsection (3) applies to a person who, on that coming into force, would have been a citizen under paragraph (1)(b) only by operation of paragraph (7)(n) in respect of one of their parents. (5) Subsection 3(5.2) of the Act is repealed. (6) Section 3 of the Act is amended by adding the following after subsection (6.3): Citizenship other than by way of grant — paragraph (1)(g.1) (6.4) A person referred to in paragraph (1)(g.1) who, before the coming into force of this subsection, was granted citizenship under section 5 or 11 is deemed never to have been a citizen by way of grant. (7) Subsection 3(7) of the Act is amended by striking out “and” at the end of paragraph (l), by adding “and” at the end of paragraph (m) and by adding the following after paragraph (m): (n) a person referred to in paragraph (1)(g.1) is deemed to be a citizen under that paragraph from the time the person ceased to be a citizen.

Madam Chair, I know this is very technical. I want to add a bit of an explanation to help my colleagues understand this, because as we said, this is a very complex piece of legislation.

I want it to be clearly understood that all of the government's amendments relate only to the people we're calling the “former section 8”. These are the folks who were born in the second generation abroad between 1977 and 1981. They are the people Senator Martin talked about and wanted to help with the original wording of the bill. These are the people who lost their citizenship when they turned 28 years old, either because they didn't apply to retain it or they applied and the application failed.

We all agreed they should be scoped into this bill when we unanimously adopted amendment G-3.

Further, any time our amendments mention the letter-number combination of “(g.1)”, they refer to those former section 8 people who will now be citizens because of this bill. In several instances, these (g.1) former section 8 people have to be added into the current act to ensure that they are treated the same as all other citizens who were born abroad and got their citizenship because it was passed down to them from a Canadian parent.

Amendment G-5 proposes new text to clarify three things.

One is the people whose citizenship is being restored by the bill. By that, I mean the former section 8 people are being restored back to the date of their loss.

Two is if, since losing their citizenship at age 28, they received a grant of citizenship, they are now deemed to have never received that grant and are a citizen by operation of this bill.

Three is that their child, if born abroad, would not automatically be a citizen. The reason I say “automatically” is that earlier, we adopted the NDP amendments that modified the first-generation limits to say that the limitation doesn't apply if the child is born after 2009 and the parent has that substantial connection of physical presence in Canada for three years. Through this amendment, a former section 8 person being restored by the bill who meets the substantial connection would be able to pass their citizenship to a child born abroad. Again, though, the substantial connection would have to be made before the child is born.

This amendment is also really important, because it would protect any unintended loss of citizenship. This amendment is needed to ensure that anyone who was already a Canadian citizen when the bill comes into force will remain a Canadian citizen.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Before we get into the debate, we started at 4:34. We've had the services for two hours, so we have to end around 6:35. Would the members like to go into debate at the next meeting? It's 6:34.

Is it the will of the members to adjourn?

6:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you. The meeting is adjourned.