Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 1st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

Ms. Girard is next.

[Nicole Girard]

Could the member repeat the question, please? I only heard part of it.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The amendment deals with citizenship ceremonies that would take place virtually.

Can a virtual ceremony do any harm? Is there really value added to a ceremony that takes place in person? How much of a problem is a virtual ceremony?

[Nicole Girard]

Thank you for the question.

The amendment in question did not propose to replace in-person ceremonies. I want to be very clear about that. The proposal is to give the applicant a choice, either to take the oath as required at an in-person ceremony, as is currently the case, or to take the oath through technology and then participate in a ceremony later. This reduces processing times by up to three months. At any time, under this proposal, the applicant may participate in an in-person ceremony.

It's also true that, during the pandemic, the department set up virtual ceremonies. At another committee meeting, I pointed out in my testimony that this has allowed the department to reach a record number of citizenship awards. In the past year, we've granted citizenship to over 374,000 applicants. This was possible because we had the flexibility to offer virtual ceremonies. People were very happy to be able to become Canadian citizens despite the constraints that prevented us from doing more in-person ceremonies.

We continue to offer in-person ceremonies as well as virtual ceremonies, which allow us not only to continue to reduce backlogs and processing times, but also to welcome more Canadian citizens more quickly.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

I have a long list of speakers.

Go ahead, Mr. Kmiec.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm one of those Canadian citizens who was naturalized. I did my ceremony back in 1989. I think I've said that before. I still have one of those old little citizenship cards. I still think the cards are better than the big certificates. I'm sorry if the department doesn't like them. I know those cards are probably tougher and more expensive to make, but they were handy. I was using mine for some videos we were making on Parliament Hill a few weeks ago, and I actually had the card in my hand. I wanted to show that they did used to exist. They used to have your picture on them. I'm eight in that picture, with way more hair, way more curly, too.

This amendment actually comes from ideas and witness testimony we heard here from the Institute for Canadian Citizenship, and Daniel Bernhard, who does incredible work to provide enhanced citizenship ceremonies. He understands this department has three names in it. It is the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, and too often, especially on this committee, we forget we do citizenship. The point of immigration is citizenship.

I know we talk about filling workforce needs and labour market needs, and especially—and I care about this very much—helping people escape terrible conditions in other countries. These are all very good things we do. My father is very thankful that Canada allowed him to stay. My dad was a member of the Solidarity movement. He came to Canada when my grandfather was passing away of brain cancer in Toronto. He's buried in Toronto. My grandmother is buried in Toronto. This has been a great country for us.

I have never heard my father complain that he had to do an in-person citizenship ceremony. I've actually never had someone come to me and complain that it was a huge inconvenience to have to do an in-person citizenship ceremony. In fact, I've heard the opposite. I've had people come to me and say that they had to do a virtual ceremony and they tried to make it as meaningful as possible.

In the emails the department sends out, it pushes virtual ceremonies as the option. You have to click. That's what the department pushes. It's not obvious to anyone reading these emails that there is the other option of an in-person ceremony.

I've sometimes heard the argument made that this is how we can clear a backlog of citizenship ceremonies. Why not just assign more staff and more people? The Government of Canada has more properties than anybody else, I think, in Canada. There is double the staff there used to be, according to PowerPoint decks I have from the department on the number of staff. The Treasury Board Secretariat shows there are record numbers of staff in this department and we've doubled the funding of this department, but we can't do in-person citizenship ceremonies on a reasonable delay?

You can invite people. Why is it that cinemas can figure out how to fill their seats? Why is it that churches can figure out how to fill themselves? Why is it that private sector organizations can figure it out, but the Government of Canada can't?

As my colleague said, this is an opportunity for people from different backgrounds, different places, with different mother tongues. French and English are not my mother tongues. I still think in Polish and I try to translate in my head as fast as possible. It's a big deal. You get to meet people from other places of origin. I really think it should be mandatory to do it at an in-person citizenship ceremony. That should be the default setting.

The excuse that there is a backlog, and therefore it needs to be cleared by any means necessary, is not good enough. The department has been promoting, and it's in the budget as well, what's called “click citizenship”. That's what I'm calling it. It's just an attestation that you took the oath of citizenship.

I've been to these ceremonies. They're very meaningful for people. People take pictures at them. They like participating. They linger afterwards. RCMP and local police forces attend in their dress uniforms. It is truly, truly, a special event.

I was underage when I took my oath of citizenship, and I will admit to having been distracted because we were on a very high floor. Those of us of a certain vintage—I'll say Polish vintage—know that the tallest building in Poland, I think, was the Communist Party headquarters in Warsaw. I'm not from the capital originally. I'm from a place called Gdańsk.

This is why this is so important. I was distracted because it was a special day. My mom took the oath of citizenship. It was a big deal. Canada naturalizes more citizens, I think, than any other place in the world, but I'm happy to be corrected. It is a special time. People take pictures. They frame these pictures. They frame their certificates. There's a reason many members of Parliament send people congratulatory scrolls, and we send them those certificate holders, which have gotten incredibly expensive postpandemic and are a bit hit to our members' office budgets, if the whips and House leaders and the Board of Internal Economy are paying attention. I think the chair agrees with me that they are very expensive—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Yes.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

—but it's a big deal, and we recognize that it's a big deal. I've had people respond back to me on the letter and the certificate because they're so proud of having become citizens of another country, so why wouldn't we do it in person?

My colleague, Michelle Rempel Garner, spoke passionately about this issue. There are so few things in Canada that are kind of a like a unique Canadian experience.

Any Canadian can go to a citizenship ceremony. There are festivals in Calgary, where the department in the past—prepandemic—held open-air, large-scale citizenship ceremonies. One of them, I think, was at Elliston Park. There's another one that happens in the north part of my riding. As some members know, I have the second-largest riding by population in Canada, and the largest riding by area in Calgary as well. It's a huge area.

There are lots of good places. You could do it in the open air. You could have citizens who were born here take the oath with others who were not. It's group participation. Usually there's a judge who gives a good speech or an explanation of what it means to become a citizen. Maybe they bring up a few famous Canadians who were naturalized citizens. It's something that brings us all together.

Again, I've never had a person come to my office and say, “Going in person is really inconvenient for me.”

There are enough resources in this department to do this. I want to raise the point that the Parliamentary Budget Officer raised when he did an analysis of this department's human resources. It has a number of people working for it. In the office's estimation, it was 65% too many people. I'm really paraphrasing it down to just a one-liner here, but it was 65% more than they needed to process the current backlog and workload they have.

Why is it that we can't make citizenship an equal priority to resettling refugees and to helping immigrants and newcomers? Why can't it be an equal task to make new citizens?

We make them through an in-person ceremony. They get to meet others who are becoming citizens of Canada. Maybe they strike up a friendship with people from a completely different part of the world. Maybe they have different traditions at home or a different language that they speak at the dinner table.

Why can't we make this one of the requirements?

There was witness testimony that citizenship ceremonies are important. Conservatives have several floor amendments that we want to push to make citizenship ceremonies in law and important, because I don't know the next time we'll do a statutory review or a complete review of the Citizenship Act. These come up so rarely. There are so few opportunities for members to do a private member's bill. This bill comes from the Senate.

As members know, I've done a disability tax credit bill and Rare Disease Day. I've done different motions in the House on different issues, but I drew a very low number. I think it was third from last, of all members in the House, so I will never get an opportunity in this Parliament to push for a change to the Citizenship Act. Had I been able to, this would have been the issue. It would be these in-person citizenship ceremonies. I implore members to vote for this.

I also want to quote something that the minister said on this subject during Citizenship Week. He said it had just passed, and they had over 13,000 people become citizens. Here's the statement I want to quote:

It was a great honour to participate in welcoming over 13,500 new members to our Canadian family. In fact, it is one of the best parts of my job. Citizenship Week 2023 has given me the chance to reflect on everything that being Canadian means: the freedom to live as our authentic selves, the connection to our natural world, and the opportunity to reach our full potential no matter where we came from. I am thankful every day to be Canadian, and I encourage everyone to reflect on what being Canadian means to them.

It goes on to say that the past year saw 364,000 new Canadian citizens.

Why can't they have in-person ceremonies? That should always be the default that is pushed. Actually, the government should prepare in anticipation. We prepare all the time to have all types of services provided in person at Service Canada desks, such as passport services. I know that there's an online digital portal for passport services being provided, but I think that applying for your passport, although important, especially for new citizens....

By the way, another process change the department should make is for the document of citizenship. That document should be provided at the end of the citizenship ceremony, not mailed to you afterward. They make them cut the PR card, and then people can't apply for the passport until they get that certificate. Why can't the department simply plan at certain times of the year to have IRCC and Service Canada offices open? Maybe you could even work it out with local Legions.

Make it part of the process. Make it an equal thing that we do. We do immigration, refugees and citizenship. I don't see why we can't do this. We put it into law as well. As parliamentarians, we tell the department what to do. I think that's entirely reasonable.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Next I have Mr. Waugh.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for the welcome to the committee.

Mr. Redekopp is usually in this seat. He represents one-third of the city of Saskatoon. I also represent one-third of the city of Saskatoon, along with Mr. Tochor.

I was shocked to find that they want more virtual than in-person citizenship ceremonies. I attended so many before COVID and after COVID. When I look around this room, I see there are a few of you who have been here longer than I have. I've only been here since 2015.

I'll be frank: When I started as a member of Parliament in October of 2015, I didn't attend any Canadian citizenship ceremonies. I was the lucky one. I drew the card. I was born in Canada. I was born in Saskatoon, so I was lucky.

When I look at my community and my province, and even my country, I see the communities are changing quite a bit. I think every one of us, when we go back home, notices that our communities have changed more in the last seven or eight years than they have probably in the 20 years before that. It's a good change, as we've seen.

The staff at immigration, when I attend these ceremonies, is all over me. They are all so excited to see a member of Parliament come and give greetings on behalf of this country. They were so excited in my city to start having real citizenship ceremonies again, and I've done several since COVID. They're phoning my office now, asking, “When can Mr. Waugh come? In fact, we'll arrange for Mr. Waugh to come for our ceremony and bring greetings.”

When I go to Saskatoon, historians who have been in my province and in my city are the presiding officials. I know many of them have history degrees from the University of Saskatchewan. They talk about how our great province was built and they share that with the new Canadians.

Mr. Tom Kmiec mentioned the RCMP. They are so proud to wear.... Many of them are retired and are coming back for these citizenship ceremonies. They don't have to, but they feel obliged. What a ceremony it is with them on hand. It goes for about an hour. I've been to some where there are 65, and I've also been at ceremonies where we've had 180. When the pictures are taken afterward with the presiding officials, the MPs and the families, we've cried together on the stage at TCU Place.

These are huge moments in families. Some of them have come from tough situations in other countries. Some have waited years to become Canadian citizens. Don't take that away from them—this moment to come on the stage and to say, “I'm Canadian”. The oath is just marvellous. I wish all Canadians, after 10 years, could experience one.

I was a broadcaster in the city for 40 years. I never attended one. I don't know why. When I became the MP of Saskatoon—Grasswood, I was invited to one. All Canadians should reaffirm the oath and should be proud of this country.

I think I agree with the member from Calgary that sometimes Canadians are too shy to show how great this country is. When you sit out in the front and you look out and see many of them crying with their families because this is the moment they've waited for.... Don't do this thing virtually. Give them their three seconds on the stage. It is ridiculous that I have to see this amendment coming forward.

I've heard many testimonies from people who have come on the stage, and 90% of them start out great and then start crying at the end. It means so much to them. Many of these new Canadians have gone through hell just to get here. This is their moment to really have a chance in life. I'm frustrated when I see that we don't want to really work hard to get people together. This is our country. This is when we share our culture. This is when we share our traditions.

In my city we often talk about the Western Development Museum, because when I talk to them, I want them to understand Canada. I implore every one of them to come through the Western Development Museum in Saskatoon to see what our forefathers went through before they got here. Take a look at our province from 1905 to what it is today. I'm going to share your culture and I will share your traditions, but part of becoming Canadian is learning what Canada is all about. Part of that, to me in my city, is the Western Development Museum. See what our forefathers went through in 1905 compared to today in 2023.

We used to give them free passes for a year to come to our parks. What a great idea that was. Do we still do that? That in itself.... Canada is wide. We're the third- or second-largest country in the world. Many of the people who come here can't believe how vast it is, but giving them a pass to one of our parks was a real treat for many of them. They would take the family and learn about our parks and our country.

We used to put that in our packages. I hope we still do that. I fear we don't anymore, but that was part of a nice little package they got to feel a part of our country.

Madam Chair, our communities, as I said, are changing, and they're changing quite a bit, not only here in Ontario but in western Canada. When I heard that the mayor of Calgary was not wanting to celebrate Canada Day, it was frustrating.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Sorry for talking. We were being loud.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

That's fine. As you know, I'm one of the loudest in Parliament.

We had a situation last year in the city of Saskatoon. For several decades, the Optimist Club had put on Canada Day and we did a new citizenship ceremony with Canada Day. The Optimist Club, after many decades, decided they were tired of doing Canada Day. It's unfortunate, because in our city we're nearing 300,000. We are the largest city in the province and we welcome citizenship. The Optimist Club just ran out of steam, and we haven't done a very good job, in my estimation, on Canada Day and what it means.

I go to the Amadiyyas. I go to the Islamic Association. That in itself is a big change in my community. Last year I had two invitations for Canada Day, from the Islamic Association and the Amadiyyas. We didn't have a real Canada Day because the Optimist Club, after many decades of putting on one in Diefenbaker Park....

I know that department officials check boxes off and you send it in, but I've cried with families on stage. I have seen the impact of real live citizenship ceremonies. I've seen some people who have lived here for years who decide, at the moment, that they need to be a Canadian citizen today, and this is a big moment for me. I've seen some, of all colours, wait two or three years to have their families together on the stage with us. Don't take that away from people.

I think that as parliamentarians, we have an obligation to go to these ceremonies. I hope all of us have gone to ceremonies, because if you haven't, you're missing out, and shame on you. We need to be at these ceremonies. You need to be in front of new Canadians. It doesn't matter who they vote for; they have come to this country, and every one of us around this table, including the Bloc, should be at citizenship ceremonies. These are new Canadians. These are people who have put trust not only in our country but in our institutions.

That's all I'm going to say, Madam Chair. I am deeply concerned about this and I am disappointed in the immigration department, knowing that in my province of Saskatchewan, when I show up, we're hugging. The immigration officials are hugging me, saying, “Mr. Waugh, thank you for coming. We appreciate you”, or Mr. Redekopp or Mr. Tochor.

These are big moments in the lives of new Canadians. Don't take that away from them.

Madam Chair, that's all I have to say on this. This is deeply moving, and it should not be done virtually anymore.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

MP Ali, you have the floor.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The claim my honourable colleagues are making on citizenship ceremonies is not true; it's misleading. I think that they should not be playing politics with this, because this is really important.

May 23 last week, when it was Citizenship Week, was very emotional for me. For the first time after becoming a member of Parliament for Brampton Centre, I had an opportunity to be present at a citizenship ceremony in Mississauga, where 96 people from 36 countries took the oath, and I witnessed it. That was an emotional moment for me, because it's the first time after becoming a citizen that I was at an oath ceremony in person.

During Citizenship Week, which was last week, my colleagues from Peel region and across the country attended many citizenship ceremonies that were in person, so saying that in-person ceremonies are not happening is not true and is misleading. For me, a citizenship ceremony is really important. I still remember when I took my own oath as a citizen of Canada.

I would respectfully request my colleagues not to mislead Canadians on this and to tell the truth. Last week, we had 105 in-person ceremonies where 13,500 new Canadians took the oath, which is amazing. Every month, I believe, we have over 275 in-person ceremonies where 30,000 new Canadians take the oath. I believe that one of my colleagues here was at a citizenship ceremony in Ottawa in person. Saying that there are no in-person ceremonies is misleading; it's not factual.

I have signed about a thousand letters in my riding to new Canadians to congratulate them on becoming a Canadian citizen. I just wanted to share my experience. I would also like to thank all the citizenship judges and staff. They put so much effort into preparing these in-person citizenship ceremonies. In fact, in Mississauga, there's a citizenship ceremony scheduled for Canada Day. An in-person citizenship ceremony is scheduled on Canada Day. It's happening everywhere across the country. Coming out and misleading Canadians and playing at politics feels disrespectful to those staff who are putting effort into preparing ceremonies. We should appreciate them.

In fact, I remember that time in Harper's time when the Conservative side wanted to make citizenship two-tiered. Our now Prime Minister and the Liberals came out and said that a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian.

I just wanted to put on record, Madam Chair, that we have in-person ceremonies all across the country. In fact, one organization in my riding will be partnering with a citizenship judge to have an open-air, in-person citizenship ceremony in Brampton Centre. I just wanted to put that fact on the record.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Ali.

Now we will go to Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I won't take very long.

First I'd like to thank the officials for actually putting the facts on the table and clarifying that in fact citizenship ceremonies are taking place in person as well as virtually as an option.

I will speak very briefly about my own personal experience. As committee members know, I'm an immigrant. My family of eight immigrated here to Canada back in 1976. I come from a low-income family. I've shared this on the public record many times, because that is my history and background.

My mother made $10 a day as an immigrant when we first arrived here, as a farm worker. My dad went to language school at the local community college and took up English as a second language. He's retired now. He was trained as a tailor, but he couldn't find work here, so he went to pick up the language. My mother supported a family of eight on $10 a day. Later on, two years later, she graduated and became a minimum-wage dishwasher until she retired at 65. My dad was able to get some work after he picked up the language and worked for a factory—Sears, in fact. He cut out fabric for patterns by piece. That's how much he got paid. The work was not always steady. I remember as a child how he would come home with these little stickers. We had to put them on pieces of paper so that his employer could count how many pieces he cut. That's how he got paid.

I remember the citizenship ceremony. It was an exciting day for all of us, but I also remember like it was yesterday the stress I saw on my mom's and dad's faces. It was not because they weren't happy to become citizens; it was really important for them and for all of us, but they literally threw everything away to support our family to do this. The stress was from this: It meant that they missed their workday. They had no pay. My mom missed a workday to do the ceremony. Minimum wages meant everything for our family. My dad, whose work was not always steady—it was on call—had to turn away a day when he was called in to work to attend the ceremony.

Now, I get how exciting it is and how wonderful it is. Lots of people care, and I love it. I have hosted ceremonies and celebrations with constituents. I see the excitement and joy in their faces, and I love it. I absolutely love it, but there are people who cannot afford to do it. That is a practicality that exists—not just for my family back in my day, when I was a kid, but today too. For many immigrants, the reality they face is that it's a major challenge for them, and it is financial.

As for having an option to do this, I'm pretty sure that if we'd had that option back in the day, my parents would have chosen that. For both of them to miss their workday and not be paid was a serious thing. Many a time, when there was not enough food on the table, my mom would just say, “I am not hungry.” I knew she was hungry. She was not eating because she was doing it for us, the children.

I don't want to have any misconception here about this. Making this mandatory is wrong. I am sorry; it is wrong. It was wrong for my family, but we attended because that was the only option. Yes, we celebrated, but I saw the stress on my parents. I was little; I was a kid, but man, do I ever remember that day—happy and sad at the same time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Rempel Garner is not here, so we'll go to Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It is a privilege for me to be able to speak to this motion that my colleague has brought forward on having in-person citizenship ceremonies.

I just want to add a few words to say that I'm luckier than Mr. Waugh. He was born in Saskatoon. I was born in Souris, Manitoba, which has some of the greatest farming areas in the country. We'll have that debate later, I'm sure.

Thank you, Madam Chair and colleagues, for your best wishes today.

Just 20 minutes before I came to this meeting today, I met a person who has been trying to get his wife and four-year-old daughter over here for most of the last four years. He had been running up against a brick wall to get here to Canada, perhaps because of the nature of the country he was coming from. I know I have had interventions with the minister himself. I don't know if any of my colleagues here today from CIMM have paid attention to this particular case.

We've talked around this table this morning about how happy the people are at the citizenship ceremonies when they can go in person and have that opportunity. I'm sympathetic to what Ms. Kwan just said, and maybe not everybody has the ability to do this in person, but I think they should be given the opportunity to do so.

In the situation I'm talking about this morning, after years of frustration working with this particular individual, whom I have been working with for a number of years now, I met him this morning. He said, “Larry, guess what? My wife is coming.” I thank the minister for the work he did to make sure this particular case was dealt with. If you want to talk about smiles, you couldn't wipe the smile off his face this morning with a paintbrush.

I just want to say that when the opportunity comes for his wife—they are married—and his daughter to be here, I'm quite sure I'll want to make a special attempt to be at the citizenship ceremony for his family.

We've all done thousands of Zoom calls during COVID, but this is post-COVID. We need to offer as many of these ceremonies as we can. I have had citizenship ceremonies now with at least three citizenship judges who have had the opportunity to do these ceremonies over the last almost 10 years that I've been a member of Parliament. It is a special ceremony.

We've held them in some of the most historic buildings. My colleague just talked about the pioneer centre in Saskatoon. I've been there myself as a child. I know the importance of that facility as a museum. We have the “Dome Building” in Brandon. It's one of the oldest historic buildings in southwest Manitoba. It's one of the last standing domed buildings that was built for the Dominion fairs of the 1880s to 1920s era. It is an extremely special place to hold a citizenship ceremony. I've been on CFB Shilo for citizenship ceremonies. I've been at the Winnipeg CN station—the old historic station that was the first in western Canada—when it was specifically set up for citizenship ceremonies. Many were held there.

We have these special ceremonies coming up in our region. Brandon in particular, which is half of the population of Brandon—Souris—the other half is completely rural areas, the small communities—has two major parades a year. One is the Travellers' Day Parade, which is coming up on June 10. The other is the Santa Claus parade. It was a pretty cold day at the end of November last year when that Santa Claus parade was on. Business people and other organizations make a special attempt to make sure they have floats and identification in those two parades. On one of the coldest days of November last year, I was proud to ride in that parade and watch the smiles on the faces of young families who definitely weren't born here in Canada in this cold weather. There were thousands and thousands of them lining the streets to take part in that. Many of them, I know, have had their citizenship ceremony because I, like Mr. Ali, have taken the opportunity to do a special event with each one of them in recognition of their citizenship.

I met a person in the airport the other day in Winnipeg when I was going back through, and he thanked me for the citizenship certificate that I'd given him three years ago. I had never met this individual personally before because, of course, three years ago was the middle of COVID, when he would have received it in a virtual ceremony.

Part of this responsibility that we have—and the responsibility we have is not a job—is to our citizens in Canada. Having been on the immigration committee for three or four years before this particular term on the citizenship committee, it's much more than just the work we do here on a daily basis; it's to make sure that we have as many permanent residents who have the opportunity to become citizens in Canada as we possibly can.

One of the terminologies we have here.... Many people have heard me say publicly that I'm not a big fan of the phrase “temporary foreign workers”, because what we want are Canadian citizens who are permanent residents who can work in jobs every day and have an opportunity to raise their families here alongside all the rest of us who had, as my colleagues have said, the privilege of being born in this country.

It is a bit of privilege for me to be able to see the smiles on these families' faces. I was particularly reminded of it coming to this meeting this morning. It was just a fluke that I ended up stopping at this person's business for a few moments, and I was greeted with this huge story he had. I congratulated him profusely for his success in being able to have his family come to Canada. I know that they will become Canadian citizens at the earliest opportunity.

I think that these special ceremonies should be used as much as they possibly can be in Canada. I know it because of the pride, but I'm not going to go into the details that my colleagues have already mentioned in regard to the happiness, the pride they take, the dressing up as a family, the pictures that they take and that they want, the little Canadian pins and the, in my case, little Manitoba pins that the provincial members give them and the local pins for the communities they're in. These may not mean much to some folks, but I know the people who they do mean a lot to, and they are those new Canadians who get these small tokens through a live citizenship ceremony.

I'll leave it at that, Madam Chair. I think it's just one of the most wonderful events, as my colleagues have said, that we can attend in Canada. I would certainly not want to lose the opportunity to do these in a live ceremony at any time in the future.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Maguire.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you have the floor.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, how much time do I have here at this meeting? I can speak for hours. Can you tell me the hard stop, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Mr. Dhaliwal, make your point. Whatever you want to say, please go ahead.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, first of all, I want to thank my dear friend Mr. Ali, not only for bringing all these statistics and personally attending the meetings last week but also for all the great work he does, not only for the people of Brampton Centre but in fact on any real issue. On the student issue, he was there, and on any other issue that comes in that affects the immigrant community, he has always been there. I want to thank him.

Madam Chair, I want to tell the committee members that I came to Canada as an immigrant as well. I came to Canada in 1984 and landed in a beautiful city at that time, Calgary. I went to the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology and to the University of Calgary, getting my engineering degree.

Madam Chair, I got my citizenship in 1987 at the earliest moment I could. I was very proud and am still very proud to be Canadian. It's not only me. In fact, all my family are Canadian citizens, including my mom, who is very vibrant. She worked here in this country. She still today, at 83, goes with me when I am campaigning or doing any social work. She is ahead of me all the time with the energy she carries, but she came to Canada not speaking any English.

I remember when Conservatives were in power and we talked about citizenship for people aged 55 to 65 for people who did not have knowledge of the English language, and I can tell you that my mother would have had to wait a long time if that had been in effect at the time when she took her citizenship. I'm sure there were many, but in fact, I still remember when the Liberals came back to power and brought in Bill C‑6, which brought that age back to 55 and gave many immigrants whose mother tongue was not English or French the opportunity to have their citizenship earlier. I can tell you that the Liberals were helping.

In fact, I took the oath personally, and I have that small card, the one that Mr. Kmiec was mentioning, but I have also seen excitement on the online meetings. I still remember that I was asked to come to one of the homes. Mr. Sashi Kumar, who is a Canadian citizen now, lives in my riding. He invited me. He was very excited to become a Canadian citizen and to have an opportunity to do it online. They decorated the whole home, they invited the whole family and they invited me, and I made my way to them to see the excitement.

The technology changes, and I think it's totally appropriate to have both a personal ceremony and one online for people who are in difficult situations, like Madam Kwan's mom. I'm sure there are still many out there in Canada who are in the same situation today. They cannot go personally to attend their ceremony and they want to opt out, do it at home and celebrate at home, the way that Mr. Sashi Kumar and his family did when they invited me. I was very proud to be part of that celebration at home.

Madam Chair, as I said, I could go on for hours, but I know that Bill S‑245 is a very important bill as well because it is going to help many Canadians who have lost their citizenship. I know Senator Martin. She's a wonderful person. I have a very excellent working relationship with her, and she's also from beautiful British Columbia. I would love to see this bill go through ASAP.

The important question that maybe we should be asking officials in terms of the online test that came in during COVID is about protecting the integrity of that test. It came to my knowledge that there might be an opportunity for some fraud if the people themselves don't appear for the test, but others do, from the outside. What steps are being taken by the department to make sure that we are able to protect the integrity of our examination centres or examination tests or whatever they have for citizenship?

That would be my question, Madam Chair.

With that, I want to thank each and every one of you who spoke so passionately about the citizenship ceremony, whether it be in person or online.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal.

Do you need an answer or any clarification from Ms. Girard?

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Yes, I do. This is an immediate issue, Madam Chair.

I can tell you that in one case that came to me personally, that person used another source to get his or her test passed and became a citizen. To protect against that type of fraud, what other steps can the department take, or is the department taking—to make sure that things like that don't happen?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal.

Go ahead, Ms. Girard.