Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Sept. 26th, 2023

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Keelan Buck]

Honourable members of the committee, good afternoon. It's very nice to see everyone.

At this time I see a quorum.

I must inform members that the clerk of the committee can receive motions only for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions or entertain points of order, nor can they participate in debate.

If everyone's ready we can now proceed to the election of the chair. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the chair must be a member of the government party.

I'm now ready to receive motions.

Go ahead, Mr. Redekopp.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I move that we make Sukh Dhaliwal the chair.

[The Clerk]

It has been moved by Mr. Redekopp that Mr. Dhaliwal be elected chair of the committee. Are there any further motions?

Seeing none, is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion that Mr. Dhaliwal be appointed chair of the committee?

(Motion agreed to)

I declare Mr. Dhaliwal duly elected chair of the committee.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Let me say a few words to start with.

First of all, Brad, thank you for proposing my name.

Thank you, all of you, for putting your confidence in me and electing me as your chair. I know many of you. We have worked together on the citizenship committee, and also on the Afghanistan committee when I was able to chair that committee. When we were on the Afghanistan committee we did really well together as members. I will continue to put in the effort to make sure we get business done efficiently and fairly.

To the outgoing chair, MP Salma Zahid, thank you for doing great work here. It was not easy to work under stressful circumstances sometimes, but I can tell you that you did fabulous work as the chair. Thank you for that.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I'm looking forward to working with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Here we go.

Madam Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Congratulations on your position, with thanks, of course, to MP Zahid for her service to this committee as committee chair.

I welcome new members to this committee. Some faces are new, and there are returning members to the committee. I look forward to working with everyone in this new sitting of the House.

Mr. Chair, I have three items I would like to raise.

We started late today due to votes in the House. I've canvassed committee members loosely, and I believe that the Conservatives are okay for us to adjourn at our regular time. I believe the Bloc is as well, as are the Liberal members. To that end, first off, I would like to propose that we end our committee at our regular time, because we have planned for other events following the committee meeting.

After that, Mr. Chair, I have a couple of motions I would like to move.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Do we have unanimous consent to go until 5:30?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but I have a couple of motions I would like to put forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I know, but it is on the same issue.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

No, Mr. Chair, I'd like to introduce a motion.

First and foremost, I want to congratulate you on your new role as chair. I do not know if it's because I've gained some experience or that I'm lucky, but this is the second time I've had you as chair.

I'd like to move a motion, if I may. It reads:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, does this have something to do with the time slot? Otherwise, Madam Kwan is in front of you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

No, I wanted to see if I could get my motion in before Ms. Kwan moved hers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Can we go to Madam Kwan?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.

I have two motions that I would like to move.

The first motion that I will move is related to this, for which notice has been given:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee conduct a study on the government's progress around the regularization of undocumented workers; the impact of closed work permits for temporary foreign workers; and the findings related to Canada's Temporary Foreign Worker program by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of slavery, Tomoya Obokata; that the committee invite the United Nations Special Rapporteur to appear before the committee for one hour; that officials from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada and Employment and Social Development Canada also be invited to appear before the committee for one hour total; that the study consist of no more than five meetings; that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee request that the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

Mr. Chair, I would just speak to this motion for a minute. We heard over the course of the summer that the special rapporteur made comments about Canada's temporary foreign worker program, and called it modern-day slavery. The issue is significant, particularly for those without full status and what that means for them. Many of them suffer a whole variety of indignities. As well, they are subject to exploitation. We've all heard those stories. We've all witnessed those experiences by people who are caught out in that situation. I think it is absolutely essential that we invite the UN rapporteur to come to the committee to speak to it, and also that we give an opportunity to officials to respond to that.

In addition, part of the main issue, which I know my colleague MP Brunelle-Duceppe is passionate about—he also has a motion on the floor to ask the committee to look into the issue—is closed work permits. That is an absolutely critical issue related to this matter as well, but where we differ is that, in my opinion, it's an issue on not just closed work permits but also regularization. Ultimately, what is essential is for people to get full status here in Canada. To that end, I think it is important that we incorporate the regularization component into this study.

Mr. Chair, I would like to move this motion accordingly. I hope committee members will support it.

Finally, I would simply say that it is in the minister's mandate letter. Certainly in the previous minister's mandate letter regularization was something that the former minister was tasked to work on, and I assume that this is something that the current minister, from my conversation with this new minister, is also embarking on.

To address all these issues, we need to combine the study into one study. Hence, I move this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, go ahead, and then Mr. Redekopp.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I understand what Ms. Kwan wants to do with this motion. Unfortunately, I can hardly support that position, because the issue of work permits related to a given employer, or closed permits, is quite broad and extremely important to those who have that kind of permit. It's also important to our small farmers and to many sectors of economic activity in Quebec and Canada.

I feel it would be a mistake to add the regularization of temporary foreign worker status to the study. An individual who currently has a closed permit has status: They are a temporary foreign worker with a closed permit. It's a status, and we don't need to regularize it because that individual already has it.

The issue is not whether we should regularize the status of temporary foreign workers. We need to look at the impact of closed permits on workers. Do these permits give employers too much power over temporary foreign workers? Is there a way to phase out closed permits and create other kinds of permits, such as sectoral or regional open permits, or is that a bad idea and should the permits be kept closed?

What I'm proposing in my motion, which you have already received, is that we look into this matter and hear from experts so that they can tell us about the impact this has on workers and what it would mean to make changes to the status of closed permit holders. I believe we need to look at status regularization, but we mustn't confuse the two things.

Therefore, I would support a motion that we do a study on the relevance of closed permits and their impact on temporary foreign workers, and then do another study on regularizing the status of undocumented workers, which is part of the minister's mandate.

So we agree on the substance; I feel we have a difference of opinion on the form. I really feel we should do what I propose in my motion: first, a study with experts who would come and explain to us what closed permits mean and tell us whether and how we should make changes, and then a study on the regularization of undocumented workers' status to support the mandate given to the minister.

That's my position. I hope that my colleagues from the other parties will agree. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Redekopp, go ahead.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would agree, broadly, with what Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe has said.

First, just broadly speaking, if we look at what we have in front of us on the committee right now, we probably have enough to keep us busy until Christmas, just with finishing up the studies we have already undertaken. We need to keep that in mind as we talk about doing new things. We're probably talking about a February time frame here.

Second, I think Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe is right. I don't think we can combine all of these things together. There is already a study on the books, a motion that has, I believe, been talked about that would involve six meetings to study regularization of immigrants. That's already there. That was, I believe, already proposed to this committee, so we're taking that, and then, with what Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe mentioned, potentially another four meetings. We're talking about a rather large undertaking.

Everything is related in immigration, yet it's not. We all know, just with what I said already, that we have a whole three months' worth of work ahead of us on things we've already started. If we start another study that has a very broad mandate, probably none of us on this committee will be here when we actually finish that study. It will take a long time.

I would suggest that we amend this motion to split it up into the original motions that were there, because that's, essentially, what this is doing—combining together several motions. I think we're far better off to do it in bite-sized chunks. We'll actually get it done and move on. Otherwise, we could just go with a motion that Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe might propose.

Those are my thoughts. I don't like this the way it's written.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

If there are no other comments, I can suspend the meeting for two minutes so everybody can talk together on this and things can go more quickly.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I agree with Ms. Kwan's motion. It gives an opportunity to investigate, in depth, closed and open work permits with officials, so perhaps we can look at that. Perhaps both Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Ms. Kwan can look into this and maybe speak to it. We can take a break and discuss it further.

This issue is important. It affects Quebec but it also affects the rest of Canada, so we have to look at both sides of how we could handle this.

Thank you.