Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's interesting. I just pulled up, on my computer, the government website that lists companies with violations attached to them in the temporary foreign worker program. There are 79 pages on that website. I went through the first 10 pages in this short period of time and counted up the number of violations under number 9 in the code.

Number 9 states:

The pay or working conditions didn't match, or were not better than, what was listed on the offer of employment, or the job was not the same as what was listed on the offer of employment.

Each page has 10 employers. I counted 45 employers who have violated code number 9. This is the code that speaks about violating people's working conditions, or the pay. It may well be that, down the road, there are other violations listed that are just about paperwork, but paperwork is important, too, because it documents what's going on with respect to the farm. Forty-five out of 100 employers, in those first 10 pages, were in violation of pay and working conditions. There are 79 pages in total. I have not had time to go through and count them all, in this period.

To Mr. Possberg's point, the operative part is this: It doesn't matter whether you're an employee who is domestic, has full status or is a temporary foreign worker; any violation is not acceptable. In the case of temporary foreign workers, the point that is important—and why we're having this study—is the very notion that, when you're a temporary foreign worker, you don't have your rights protected. I know people will say you do in theory, but in practice you actually don't. During the COVID period, there were violations of basic working conditions so extensive that people died. They went home in body bags.

I think we need to remember this. That's why there needs to be change in the temporary foreign workers...to balance the imbalance of power that exists right now, so workers have some rights and those rights are protected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Possberg, time is up. Please give us a short answer.

[Kenton Possberg]

I cannot and will not try to make excuses for those employers. I have more to say, but I can say it later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

Mr. Maguire, you have four minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

All of us at this committee want to protect workers. Rather than implementing an open work permit, do you have any recommendations to enhance the current system to better protect workers?

[Kenton Possberg]

I think they have the protections in place. I'm speaking, generally, for the grains and oilseeds industry. I can't speak about other industries. Maybe Peggy has other ideas.

[Peggy Brekveld]

There are currently checks and balances established to ensure the safety and well-being of employees. This doesn't mean any sector is perfect. We continue to work towards that.

If there needs to be further conversation on ways forward, CAHRC is willing to be part of that conversation.

[Kenton Possberg]

I just thought of one quick thing. If an employee, a foreign worker, wants to move from one employer to another employer, maybe having a quicker, more streamlined process in place that is just a matter of a click on a website would be a way that would help facilitate that a lot better.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Right now, as long as they have that LMIA, they can....

[Kenton Possberg]

Yes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

You said in your opening that the opportunity to come to Canada is voluntary. I think that maybe Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe was talking about or seemed to infer that people were placed with an employer. I think we ought to clear that up a bit.

Do people come to Canada voluntarily or are they forced to come to Canada because they're placed with a firm?

[Kenton Possberg]

I think that's for Peggy.

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I apologize. I'll ask the question. I won't put words in Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe's mouth.

[Peggy Brekveld]

For foreign employees considering coming to Canada, the wages are shared with them and the work—the job description—is described to them and shared with them. No one forces somebody to come to Canada and experience life on a farm here. Instead, they come because that's what they want to do, and we have the need for those employees to come.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Possberg, you alluded to this earlier on. In the 21 days it takes to put a crop in the ground in the spring, there's hay involved in there for the livestock industry and there's harvest....

Ms. Brekveld, I think you indicated the 28,200 vacancies for jobs still there, never mind the 351,000 that are employed. We've heard of some bad cases, but it's a handful compared to the 351,000, and we're still 28,000 short.

Can you give me an answer, since you farm as well, Mr. Possberg? What are the ramifications of not getting a crop in and not getting it off, of the losses that can take place? How devastating can this be?

[Kenton Possberg]

I guess the loss would be significant. It could be the life and death of your farming operation.

What ends up happening if you don't have the workers is that you end up working more hours yourself, and then potentially put yourself in a situation, just through fatigue, where you're not thinking clearly.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

More accidents can happen and that sort of thing. I know what it's all about.

Ms. Brekveld, through your organization, have you heard of farms that have had a disastrous situation? Weather will play into this: wet weather, droughts, all types.... Things change sometimes as quickly as they do here in Parliament. Sometimes things are pretty slow here, but sometimes they can change from minute to minute.

Can you allude to anything you might know about and how disastrous that can be on a farm to not have these people or to have them and then have them leave?

[Peggy Brekveld]

When workers couldn't arrive on time because of logistics, entire crops weren't picked. In particular, in the springtime it was the asparagus crop. We saw that a couple of years ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

Mr. Ali, go ahead for four minutes, please.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Through you, I'd like to thank the witnesses for their time and their visit to the committee on this very important issue.

My question is for Ms. Brekveld.

Given your involvement in the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, could you elaborate on the regional variations and challenges faced by temporary foreign workers in different parts of Canada's agricultural landscape?

[Peggy Brekveld]

The job and what you will be harvesting or planting varies for which area you come from. You have everything from farms in southern Ontario, where you are picking, planting and engaged in field crops such as tomatoes, all the way up to jobs in grains and oilseeds, like my colleague here is in. The variety is huge.

Again, I will emphasize that these are skilled workers, and they come with a knowledge and an ability to do the work that is necessary to bring in a crop that helps to feed Canada and the world. That is part of the answer to food security everywhere we go.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Possberg.

First of all, thank you, on behalf of Canadians, to all the farmers, and the people who work in the agricultural sector for producing wheat, grains and all the food we put on the table.

Since you have a wealth of knowledge dealing with this, what specific recommendations would you give, which do not bind workers to specific employers, but have attractive incentives or measures? What can you offer workers to keep them for the long term, so every time they come here, they would stay with the farmers?

Do you have any specific recommendations, as per your experience, that you want to offer to this committee?

[Kenton Possberg]

In our instance, we try to treat them with respect, and we try to treat them like family. We treat them like we treat everybody else. We do get quite a few returnees every year, and that demonstrates that we do try to go that extra step. It's just critical that you have people who understand, and are passionate about the industry. That's the key.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

To follow up on this, we have those temporary foreign workers coming for that specific profession to work in that environment and that field. We see, in different companies, that the workers want to stay with those companies for a longer period of time.

What specific things do they do? Should we learn from those companies? Is there some sort of mechanism in this sector, so that we're able to keep those returning workers?

Do you want to add something to that, Ms. Brekveld?