Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

These pilot programs will be coming to an end very soon. It is really important that people are not left in limbo and that we have the programs so that those caregivers can continue to work.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I appreciate that.

I hope you continue your work with our team in advocating and working with us on that program in particular. I know how much it matters to your constituents.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I'll share the rest of the time with MP Morrice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Morrice, go ahead. You have a minute to go to the minister.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, MP Zahid, and Chair.

Minister, as you know, I met with your team a number of weeks ago with respect to concerns in my community about an exponential increase in international students that is leading to their exploitation, as well as knock-on effects in my community from not having the necessary infrastructure to receive that number of students.

I put forward a motion with a set of 10 different constructive, reasonable measures for you to consider to address this.

I wonder if you can comment on your openness to continue that conversation with expediency to make progress on advancing some of these measures.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you, MP Morrice.

Yes is the answer. I've looked at it. There are different elements of it that I think are compelling. We are hoping to make some announcements in the coming days with respect to making sure that international students are properly cared for and that they have, for example, sufficient funds to be here.

It is something that we need to continue working on, both federally and provincially, to make sure that people are really assuming the responsibilities in their own jurisdictions.

It has become a program that has been subject to abuse. The worst forms of it should be eradicated immediately, and the perverse incentives that have been created need to be addressed.

It's something we'll have to do carefully and surgically, but I think there are a number of elements in your motion that we will work on with you. I hope to show the results in the next couple of weeks, at least some of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much.

The time is up.

I will now go to my dear friend, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Miller, thank you for being here today.

You spoke about Ukraine in your opening remarks. In a show of solidarity with the Ukrainian people, Quebec wanted to help asylum seekers, obviously in exchange for reimbursement from the federal government. However, the federal government still hasn't reimbursed Quebec for the money spent, which reportedly amounts to around $50 million. Much to my surprise, the federal government is funding the initiative in the other provinces, but not in Quebec. As far as I know, unfortunately for me, Quebec is still part of Canada.

Why are you paying for the intake of Ukrainian refugees in other provinces, but not in Quebec?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

First, that isn't true. We've already supported Quebec with regard to the costs incurred. You may be talking about a surplus.

Without question, it's a Canada‑wide program, which obviously includes Quebec.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You're telling me that your Quebec counterpart's concerns are completely bogus and that you've footed the entire bill for the intake of Ukrainian refugees. Is that what you're saying?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

We covered most of the housing costs and many other costs.

In terms of any potential disagreements over amounts occasionally forwarded for reimbursement, I'll be discussing the matter in confidence with Minister Fréchette.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

In that case, why is Quebec the only province to ask you for a reimbursement?

If the other provinces aren't doing so, maybe the reason is that they aren't spending anything and that you're funding everything on the other side of the Ottawa River.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Honestly, let's face it, the Canada‑Quebec Accord relating to Immigration and Temporary Admission of Aliens works in Quebec's favour. We hear about disproportionate payments. However, many amounts paid to Quebec are requested by the other provinces. It isn't true that the other provinces don't come and ask us for money. You may have read the newspaper articles about how the City of Toronto is now asking us for $100 million, on top of the $100 million already allocated under the interim housing assistance program. It isn't true that Quebec is the only province asking us for money.

I also want to point out that Quebec has a responsibility when it comes to asylum seekers. We're working on this social project together.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Let's talk about it. You keep bringing up the Canada‑Quebec accord. However, you give money to Quebec because it has responsibilities that the other provinces don't have. It relieves the federal government of a number of responsibilities. That's why you pay. When the services that you don't provide are delivered by someone else, it's only fair that you pay. That's why the Canada‑Quebec accord is in place, Minister Miller. It's a bit tiresome to hear this all the time.

Quebec's demographic weight in Canada is 22%. However, between 2021 and 2023, we took in 55% of all asylum seekers in Canada. Minister Miller, do you realize that federal money is also the money of the people of Quebec? Logically, when the federal government spends one dollar, 22¢ comes from Quebec. It should be simple. Why don't you pay the $460 million bill? It would be fairer. Quebec would come out ahead, since its spending would perfectly align with its demographic weight in Canada.

What's stopping you from doing this? Obviously, you and the Quebec government don't see eye to eye on this matter.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Despite what you said, I'll bring up the Canada‑Quebec accord again.

First, this accord contains a multiplier that increases each year, regardless of the immigration levels set by Quebec. These levels have remained stable. You spoke of imbalances, so I identified one for you.

Second, under the same accord, the system of payment agreed upon for a number of years resulted in surplus amounts being allocated to Quebec. We haven't yet had a very public discussion with Quebec about this issue. However, Quebec received substantial payments, far more than it should have been allocated. In my opinion, the exchange of invoices should be discussed with the governments responsible for the matter, in this case the Quebec government.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Exactly. The government responsible for Quebec is asking you to pay the bill.

If there were surpluses, but you suddenly decided that Quebec would pay for asylum seekers in order to repay the surpluses, that doesn't make sense. You can't decide something like that, Minister Miller. That's not how these things work.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

If you owe me $50 and I owe you $100, that's like saying that I owe you $50, right? It's a mathematical calculation.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes. However, it depends on the agreement reached beforehand, Minister Miller.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Under what circumstance, even a hypothetical one, would Canada have an invoice to submit to Quebec or another province? I'm asking the member whether this scenario is conceivable.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The more I listen to you, Minister Miller, the more I understand why people in the city of Quebec are worried. They're listening to you too. Even though, as you say, you don't want to talk about it publicly, you keep repeating in every public forum that Quebec owes Ottawa money. This type of announcement is no trivial matter. You're saying that Quebec owes the federal government money when Quebec is paying for all the social services provided to asylum seekers. This includes French‑language instruction and housing. Quebec has been reimbursed for only 15% of these costs. In addition to not providing these services, the federal government doesn't want to foot the bill. Imagine that. This is shared jurisdiction at its worst. The federal government does nothing and Quebec does everything and also covers the costs.

You're also saying that Quebec owes Ottawa money. Minister Miller, you really need someone to help you sort things out, because this isn't working at all. It just doesn't work, Minister Miller. Quebec does everything and pays for everything. On top of that, you're saying that Quebec owes Ottawa money. That's a really special kind of calculation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Honourable member, the time is up.

Minister, do you want to respond even though the time is up?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I think that the member already drew his conclusion before asking me the question.

Clearly, a relationship is a two‑way street. It isn't a one‑way street. Canada has a major responsibility when it comes to asylum seekers. Overall, our relationship with Quebec is in good shape. We have a government‑to‑government relationship with Quebec. The Bloc Québécois doesn't set the agenda.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much.

Now we will go to Madam Kwan.

Madam Kwan, you have six minutes with the minister.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and his officials for being here today.

I would like to begin my questions on the issue with the people in Gaza, more particularly the Canadians and people in Canada who are desperate to bring their loved ones to safety. It was brought up on the issue around extended family members and the definition of family.

Can the minister advise whether he will be making any changes to the definition of “immediate family” to include extended family members, such as siblings, parents, grandparents, nieces, and nephews, many of whom, by the way, are now orphaned?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

As I told your colleague, it is something that we are working on. It's not something that I'm going to commit publicly to at this meeting. It is work that we are doing, considering how desperate the situation is. We are looking at who we can get out and effectively actually get out as opposed to simply issuing a policy and not being able, in the next turn of the hand, to actually get people out. There are a number of factors that are outside our control. However, it's something that I think....

I understand the sentiment. I understand the need. I understand the urgency. It's something that we are working on.