Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Well, I myself have visited many farms and dealt with the situation. I've looked at the housing conditions and I've tried to make recommendations. The government has even responded on some of them. I get that there are concerns, but for you to come up with that appalling statement, without even having spoken to the people you're accusing, is quite appalling, actually.

You said you are “disturbed” by the fact that many migrant workers are exploited and abused in this country. Can you put a numeric figure to that claim?

[Tomoya Obokata]

No. I do not have an exact number of how many migrant workers are being exploited.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Well, then, shouldn't you have more data to justify your sensational claim that Canadian farms are “a breeding ground for contemporary forms of slavery”?

[Tomoya Obokata]

That was an initial statement I made. I could make that only based on the findings I gathered during my visit. I did request—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Is it your usual practice to issue a preliminary statement rather than to wait to publish your assessment and recommendations in your full report? If so, why would you do that?

[Tomoya Obokata]

Yes. That's the standard practice. They were the initial findings.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Well, I find that pretty.... If you're going to make the harsh statement that you have, then I would say that maybe your initial statement should have taken a little bit more detail into it.

Do you believe there is wide-scale abuse of temporary foreign workers being conducted by Canadian farmers?

[Tomoya Obokata]

No. I never said that in my statement. I never said it was widespread or systemic. In fact, I met farmer associations that were able to share examples of good practices in protecting the rights of workers. I do believe that a large number of—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

You said that you met in your period of time here with Employment and Social Development Canada, I'm assuming. From that time, they inspected more than 2,100 businesses that employ foreign workers in Canada. Those inspectors found that 94% of employers were compliant. Your September statement neglected to point out that you're concerned about the actions of only a few bad actors. Why did you choose to paint the entire sector with such a broad brush?

[Tomoya Obokata]

I did not do that. Nowhere in my statement did I say that it was widespread or systemic. I never used those words.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

You painted them with a pretty broad brush, calling them “a breeding ground for contemporary forms of slavery”. That's pretty harsh.

[Tomoya Obokata]

I did not talk only about agriculture. I also commented on other sectors.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

In your report, you raised concerns about the inspection process, including that inspections “may be conducted remotely”. If you're concerned about the quality of these remote inspections, isn't it a bit ironic that you didn't visit a farm during your own investigations?

[Tomoya Obokata]

Yes. I wish I'd had the chance. I always tried to reach out, but again, due to time constraints and the priorities I have, I had to make that decision.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Maybe taking in one less city and taking even a day out of the 14 days you were here to go out to inspect farms would.... If you don't believe that remote inspections are effective, why did you rely on a similar approach in crafting your own report?

[Tomoya Obokata]

Once again, my findings are based on information I received from close to 200 stakeholders I met, from a wide variety of sources.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

None of those stakeholders were farmers.

[Tomoya Obokata]

Yes, they were. It wasn't during the visit, but I did have broad consultations remotely afterwards, because I found it necessary to speak to the farmers' associations across Canada. I had that opportunity and it was reflected in my full report.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Whom did you speak to?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Mr. Maguire. Your time is up.

We will now go to the honourable parliamentary secretary, Mr. Chiang, for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witness for joining us today.

Mr. Obokata, over the course of the study, we had the opportunity to hear from a great number of stakeholders. We heard from farmers, lawyers, unions and migrant workers themselves. Many of them have expressed varied viewpoints and opinions on the issues of the closed work permits. Many stakeholders spoke about the consequences to the operation if they would open work permits for all temporary foreign workers.

Many have stated that employers in need of workers who recruit temporary foreign workers with high-demand skills fear that without employer-specific permits they may lose the employees they have recruited and desperately need.

When the Minister of Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship was at this committee, he stated that he was open to having region-specific and industry-specific work permits.

What are your thoughts on these specific work permits, Mr. Obokata?

[Tomoya Obokata]

Thank you.

It's difficult to say whether it is going to work if it's restricted to regions or particular sectors. Ideally, it should be open to all regions and all sectors, so the workers can go from agriculture to different sectors if they so wish.

Depending on the need and labour demand in sectors, I think it would be desirable to open up that opportunity.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

If the government were to proceed with the sectorial and regional work permits, what measures do you think they should put in place to protect temporary foreign workers from abuse and vulnerabilities?

[Tomoya Obokata]

I believe there is scope to improve labour inspection and also perhaps look at different ways to organize this program.

For instance, in the U.K., emphasis is placed upon recruitment. Workers are recruited by recruitment agencies or licensees, and they in turn assign workers to various employers. That also happens in South Korea without the involvement of the private sector at all. The government can control the recruitment itself in order to reduce the instances of potential abuse and exploitation.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Obokata.

In your “End of Mission Statement”, you acknowledge that Canada has enacted several policies in recent years that encourage Canadian businesses to protect human rights. One of those policies includes the establishment of the Canadian ombudsperson for responsible enterprise, or CORE; the revisions of Canada's responsible business conduct strategy and code of conduct for procurement to reduce the risk of forced and child labour; and the adoption of transparency legislation that requires companies to report on measures to address child and forced labour in the supply chain.

You also mentioned in your statement that Canada should expand the independence, powers and mandate of CORE. Can you be more specific in what ways you would expand CORE?