Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 30th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Good afternoon, everyone, and a warm welcome to all of you—and a special welcome to our Polish Canadian student guests who are here today.

We are very privileged to have the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship here with us again to introduce the immigration elements of Bill C-12.

I just want to start off with a few reminders. First is a reminder to all of our colleagues to kindly ensure that the witnesses have the time to answer the questions.

Witnesses, we only have limited amounts of time, so kindly try to be as succinct as possible with your answers.

I want to avoid as many points of order as possible, and I want to ensure a maximum amount of time for all. As we always do, let's try to be as collegial in our tone as possible.

Finally, I will just remind you that we have amazing interpreters, so let's make sure that we are not crosstalking over them. As always, please wait until I recognize you by name. Of course, please ensure that all your comments are addressed through the chair. Please raise your hand, members, if you wish to speak, and the clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best as we can.

Also, I have my two cards. The yellow card means that you have one minute left, and the red card means that your time is over. I'm going to save five minutes at the end of our meeting just for a couple of administrative matters that we have to take care of today.

With that, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on October 23, 2025, the committee is commencing its study of the subject matter of Bill C-12, an act respecting certain measures relating to the security of Canada's borders and the integrity of the Canadian immigration system and respecting other related security measures.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for today's meeting.

We have the Honourable Lena Metlege Diab, Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship. From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Aaron McCrorie, vice-president, intelligence and enforcement. From the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, we have Jean-Marc Gionet, acting assistant deputy minister, protection and family programs sector; Jason Hollmann, director general, asylum policy; and Tara Lang, director general, integrity policy and programs. Finally, from the Department of Justice, we have Mory Afshar, acting executive director and senior general counsel, IRCC legal services; and Anna Lillicrap, senior counsel, IRCC legal services.

We offer a warm welcome to all of you. Thank you for being here today.

Minister Diab, I now invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Minister of Immigration]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, colleagues, for the invitation.

I'm here with a lot of support at the table, hoping to be able to address your questions so that you are able to make recommendations on the study.

Canada's immigration and asylum systems reflect our values. They are fair, compassionate and grounded in the rule of law. However, the world is changing. Conflict, climate pressures and shifting migration patterns are driving unprecedented movement of people, and countries everywhere are adapting. We must also do so responsibly to uphold trust, maintain order, and keep our system fair, efficient and sustainable.

Bill C‑12 is part of this approach. It brings together targeted reforms that strengthen protections for vulnerable people, responsible migration management and public confidence in a system that works for everyone.

That trust depends on a system that's fair and firm, one that protects the vulnerable, attracts needed talent and prevents misuse. It needs to be controlled to protect our integrity and build public confidence.

Let me be crystal clear to everyone everywhere: Asylum is not a shortcut to immigration. The bill will reinforce that with two new targeted ineligibility rules.

First, asylum claims made more than one year after the initial arrival in Canada after June 24, 2020, will no longer be referred to the Immigration and Refugee Board. Second, claims by those crossing irregularly from the United States and waiting more than 14 days to apply will also be ineligible.

Individuals whose applications are inadmissible will still be eligible for a pre-removal risk assessment, ensuring that no one is returned to a dangerous situation.

These measures will strengthen integrity and fairness and maintain public confidence in the transparent application of Canadian rules.

As Canada's asylum system faces increasing demand, this bill modernizes the claims processing system so that decisions are faster, fairer and final.

A single online application will make the process more consistent, reduce errors and improve coordination. We're building a modern and efficient system. Increasing the number of hearing-ready files referred to the IRB will help reduce delays and keep cases moving efficiently. The board would also gain authority to remove abandoned claims, keeping resources focused on active cases.

Separately and to stay prepared for future crises, the bill provides authority to manage immigration documents at scale when required in the public interest. It allows temporary pauses, cancellations or adjustments of visas and permits, protecting Canadians while maintaining flexibility. These updates make the system more adaptable, sustainable and forward-looking.

Efficiency and control must go hand in hand with accountability and trust. This is essential to strengthening co-operation and accountability.

Bill C‑12 modernizes the way information is shared within the government and with provinces and territories, ensuring that it is done in a secure and transparent manner, while strengthening privacy protections.

Written agreements will clearly define what information can be shared, how it can be used and the strict limits on its disclosure to foreign entities.

By strengthening co-operation and protecting privacy, these reforms support faster decisions, stronger integrity and better service for newcomers and Canadians.

The bill is not about closing doors; it is about taking responsible steps to keep them open. It balances compassion with control, speed with fairness and modernization with accountability. It gives us the tools to manage migration with humanity and order, protecting those who need refuge and maintaining a system Canadians can trust.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now begin with the first round of questions. The first round of questions is six minutes, and we start with Ms. Rempel Garner.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

What a mess. There are over 300,000 asylum claims, and it will likely take 25 years to process the backlog. Your government has spent over $2 billion on things like hotel rooms for bogus asylum claimants. Bogus asylum claimants are getting resources that Canadians aren't eligible for, and here we are today.

Minister, the Canadian Bar Association, Refugee Law Lab, Amnesty International and other legal advocacy groups have argued that the immigration provisions found in Bill C-12 are unconstitutional. Several of them have said that they are preparing for challenges and that there could be over 24,000 court challenges.

Have you, Minister, directed your officials to begin preparing to defend the provisions of this bill in court in advance of these challenges?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Member, for that question.

There are two parts to the question. In the first, you are talking about asylum. Our government is committed to rebuilding Canadians' trust in Canada's immigration system. We're making our border stronger—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you. I asked you a pointed question. I asked a pointed question, so I expect a pointed response.

Have you directed your officials to begin preparing for legal challenges to defend those in court? You're asking us to support this bill, which is highly likely to be challenged in the courts. Have you directed your officials to begin preparing legal defences?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Again, the intent of the ineligibility measures is to protect the integrity and efficiency of the in-Canada asylum system against sudden increases.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

I'll take that as a “no” from your word salad, which is really unfortunate. You are asking us to support this bill, which virtually every legal association in the country has said is unconstitutional, and you're word salading us on whether or not you have directed your officials to begin preparing.

Would you say it is fair to characterize this, given what you've just said, as an attempt by the Liberal government to punt the mess of the asylum system to the courts?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I don't know what salad you're speaking of, but the courts have confirmed that neither the charter nor the refugee convention require a particular form of refugee determination process. In this legislation, we have the PRRA system, the pre-removal order, so the government's position is that these provisions are consistent with both the charter and Canada's international refugee law obligations.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'll just ask one of your officials: In the ministry's opinion, is the asylum deadline contained in Bill C-12 charter-compliant?

Does anybody want to answer?

[Jean-Marc Gionet, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Protection and Family Programs Sector, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Can I get a clarification, Madam Chair?

The deadline...?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

What deadline?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That's correct. It's the deadline by which somebody has to apply. I think there's an arbitrary timeline.

Is that charter-compliant?

[Jean-Marc Gionet]

Our assessment, based on the bill being tabled, is that the provisions are consistent with the charter.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

These provisions are going to be appealed.

Minister, you haven't directed your officials to begin preparing to defend these appeals, so it's highly likely that many people will perceive the measures in this bill as a way to just punt. The government is punting this to the courts.

Have you consulted with your provincial colleagues and come up with a cost estimate of the legal costs it will cost provincial governments in terms of bogus asylum claims challenging the provisions in this bill?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Again, charter challenges would go through the federal court system. That is the responsibility—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

There are legal—

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

—of the federal government, and I have the Justice officials here.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Who pays for the legal aid, Minister?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

That is the responsibility of the federal government.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

There's also provincial support that happens as well. That's what you haven't done. You haven't gone to provincial governments, as you guys helped #WelcomeToCanada 300,000-plus bogus asylum claimants across the border from the U.S.

I digress.

A recent news story involved over 200 similar stories for applications for asylum where they used copy-and-paste language. They all shared a similar immigration consultant. Why doesn't Bill C-12 contain provisions to require asylum claimants to state their reasons for claiming asylum orally, on the record, upon arriving in Canada, to prevent this type of fraud?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

These are excellent. That's exactly why we're here today to study these provisions.

These are to protect us against fraud and are about fraudulent claims.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That's not in the bill.

Why isn't it in the bill?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

The approach targets fraud in individual applications, as well as coordinated fraud schemes, to prevent systemic abuse within immigration and citizenship programs and thus hold actors accountable.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I don't think you.... That's not in the bill.