Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Sept. 25th, 2025

[Michael Ma, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

What I gather is that, due to these no-cap situations, institutions were allowed to admit as many as would come, without due considerations for housing, health care and the other aspects of having these students here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Mr. Ma.

Next, we have five minutes for Mr. Zuberi.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'd like to start off with Mr. Usher.

In your last point, you were speaking about co-operative federalism and a siloed approach. While you complete that thought, I'd also like you to opine on or share with us your thoughts on the IRCC review of the international student program that happened in 2022-23 in consultation with the provinces and territories and stakeholders. As you answer and complete that part of your testimony, could you just consider what I mentioned in terms of that review, which found, at the end, that there were unsustainable numbers undermining the program's integrity?

[Alex Usher]

I'll be honest; I don't remember that review. I mean, there's been so much going on and everybody has.... I don't really know specifically what that was. There was—

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That's fine. Could you just complete your thought on that point?

[Alex Usher]

I talked to a lot of provincial deputy ministers in the immediate aftermath of the January 2024 announcement by Minister Miller that he was putting on caps, and nobody could get a straight answer out of the ministry about how many spots were going to each province. They couldn't get straight answers about why the numbers didn't appear to be proportional, as we had been promised. They couldn't get straight answers about how fast this would be done.

The decision to tell all the provinces that they had to copy the Quebec system of letters of attestation, which might have been a good idea, was done with no consultation. The provinces were to put it together on the fly in about eight or 10 weeks. I mean, it was brutal. That's not the way you treat partners. Also, it goes the other way. Provinces.... My example was of the Premier of Ontario spreading gasoline on a fire. You don't do that.

We just don't have a way of talking about issues before they build into crises, and I'm not sure we have a way to talk to each other after crises. We're bad at coordination. Everybody likes to do things on their own. They don't like to share credit or to be seen to be indecisive by talking to another partner. It's just a corrosive way of doing politics.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I appreciate what you're saying, and I understand that you might not, as you've said, be aware of all the consultations that do happen, including the one I referred to.

I want to shift gears now and go back to you, Mr. Côté. You mentioned those who have already come into Canada under the social contract that if one studies, there is a pathway to PR, essentially. They are here right now, and we now have tightened things up, understandably. We've tightened things up, and they find themselves without that expected avenue to PR.

Do you have any suggested solutions for us in order to honour that social contract for those already in Canada, who have studied under the expectation that they would enter into PR at some point?

[André Côté]

Honestly, I do not have great solutions for you, because the challenge is that you have this whole wave of students who came in during that boom, and the rules of the game were changed while they were here. Maybe they were towards the end of their studies, or maybe they were already post-studies, on a postgraduate work permit, but they had had some signals about the direction of our immigration system, and that changed pretty abruptly. We're now operating a system in which there will be fewer spaces available.

I think it's pretty understandable that they felt like the rug was pulled out from under them. On the international brand front, I think these were the types of things we were seeing in foreign markets. In India, for example, people on Reddit message boards were literally talking about how Canada pulled the rug out from under them. These are the things that will linger.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That is an issue, certainly, and it is a bit hard to control, but do you think there is a level of social contract that we did have with those who came here?

[André Côté]

I do, yes. These are not just dollar signs in front of us; these are human beings. Also, these are people who we're hopeful will come and potentially become residents in Canada or be ambassadors for Canada when they go back home, so I think that needs to be part of our thoughts.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

To the other witnesses, just give me a yes or no.

Do you also believe this is a social contract, yes or no?

[Alex Usher]

It would be nice to honour our commitments, but if you make stupid commitments, maybe you don't have to keep them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Okay, thank you. That is five minutes.

Next, we have two and a half minutes for Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, please.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Bezo, can you give the committee examples of how recent changes to the international student program have impacted graduate research in your institutions?

I've been hearing a lot about this, and I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

[Larissa Bezo]

The impact has been profound. The committee may recall that in the first year of the cap, 2024, graduate-level studies were excluded from the cap. That being said, we saw significant declines in international talent at the graduate level coming into our institutions. International talent plays a very key role in our laboratories, driving a lot of the research that happens at our research-intensive institutions, and a significant portion of that talent.... We were seeing declines of 25%, and even greater than 25%, within those graduate programs as a result of the brand damage that came from the first year of the cap.

The impact has been very significant. In a very competitive global environment, that is a significant risk for Canada.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Sorry to interrupt, but I don't have a lot of time.

I know your institutions have been impacted, but how has society in general been impacted by the fact that basic research in our universities is taking a hit, as they say?

[Larissa Bezo]

Our empty labs don't allow us to generate research that benefits Canadian society or the broader global community. It's a tremendous loss, and it will take years to rebuild.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you so much, Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I thank all the witnesses for being with us today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

We have five minutes left for this round, and we have two more members. Next is Mr. Davies for two and a half minutes, and then Mr. Fragiskatos for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Davies, go ahead.

[Fred Davies, Conservative, Niagara South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Throughout this testimony, the witnesses have talked about multi-level responsibility, and I can't help thinking that, after the collapse of the program and the impact it's had across the country, it's a bit of Monday-morning quarterbacking for everybody involved. Hindsight is 20/20.

I'm concerned that colleges and universities over this summer have laid off over 10,000 people. Every university in the minister's riding is posting deficits. While we may have been tightening up on things, Mr. Côté, would you agree that these layoffs are fundamentally a result of the sudden shift in the federal program?

[André Côté]

It's a tough one, because the growth was concentrated in certain places. You've seen major problems at Ontario colleges, because Ontario colleges were the ones that so dramatically over-indexed. You've seen a little bit of that in other parts of the country.

The other aspect comes back to where Alex was earlier, which is that you also have the chronic underfunding of these institutions at the provincial level and constraints on domestic tuition, so there's a gradual ramp-up in the challenge, and this was a tipping point for certain institutions. As much as it stinks to close campuses and lay off staff, I also look at all this and say we had a system that grew far too big for its britches. You can't continue to employ the same number of people if you're not teaching the same number of students. It was a bit of a reckoning that had to happen.

[Fred Davies, Conservative, Niagara South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Côté.

I don't have much time here.

I understand and appreciate your comment here, but the impact is on post-secondary institutions across the country. Are you aware of any post-secondary colleges or universities that are on the verge of collapse in the country over the next couple of years?

[André Côté]

The Ontario government most recently dealt with the Laurentian University situation, which was related to a variety of other things. Interestingly, they were less over-indexed on the international student front.

I haven't heard of examples of others that are on the verge of collapse, although I do know, just from conversations with some folks in the Ontario government, that there are some they are looking at but not, obviously, publicly talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Mr. Côté. Thank you, Mr. Davies.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have two and a half minutes.