Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2025

[Laurent Martel]

Yes. That was the number of non-permanent residents.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes.

[Laurent Martel]

At the time, we were adjusting our methodology.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

There's never been any communication between IRCC and Statistics Canada regarding those numbers?

[Laurent Martel]

We've always been in communication with IRCC. The department is the one sending us the data. That's how we can—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay, but did you have any contact regarding the publication of those numbers?

[Laurent Martel]

No, not that I'm aware of.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Gravel, have you had any contact related to those numbers?

[Ron Gravel]

No.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Could you send us all the communications between IRCC and Statistics Canada on the publication of data regarding non-permanent residents?

[Laurent Martel]

I believe the access to information process can be used for that kind of request.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, but if the committee asked you for those communications, could you provide them?

[Laurent Martel]

I guess so.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, I ask that all correspondence between Statistics Canada and IRCC on the publication of numbers regarding non-permanent residents between 2018 and 2023 be sent to the committee. It is a committee request.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you. We will do that, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. I think that's your time as well.

Thank you, Mr. Martel. Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We have seven minutes left, so I am going to give three and a half minutes to the Conservatives and three and a half minutes to the Liberals.

Mr. Redekopp, you are up for three and a half minutes.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Bellissimo, you spoke in your opening remarks about Bill C-12 and constitutional vulnerability.

Could you expand on what you were referring to there?

[Mario Bellissimo]

I think that's in respect to the fact that any time we set timelines as they relate to refugee claimants—14 days, one year—you risk losing an individualization of the process. The fact that they may not then have a hearing before removal, even though they might go through the pre-removal risk assessment process, leads to constitutional vulnerability, as does some of the potential data sharing.

Some of it has now been tabled in Bill C-2, but in Bill C-12, that kind of data sharing does get into some privacy concerns and risks pushing us back.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

In your opinion, Bill C-12 is at risk of being constitutionally challenged.

[Mario Bellissimo]

Yes, I believe it is, as it currently reads.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

You were here, I think, in the last Parliament, a number of years ago. From what I recall, the discussion was about approving technology and things like that, that were needed.

Since then, we've had this massive failure on the part of the government with asylum claims and a lack of managing the system, which has led to people being almost compelled to seek asylum.

My question for you is, do you see a strain being put on the system partly because of that, and are there some changes that you think should be made in terms of technology?

[Mario Bellissimo]

As I referenced in my previous response, I think we need to leverage the technology to control intake versus output.

We can have wonderful policy ambition, but if it's not tied to administrative capacity and, basically, an operational ethos of communication, transparency and facilitation, we're going to continue to have runaway inventory, disappointed applicants and, basically, damage to our global brand.

I think there's a wonderful opportunity for leveraging that technology to bring that to ground and move forward in a much more coordinated way.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Part of the need in a country like Canada is to be able to track people when they exit the country.

Do you have any knowledge or are you aware of any system that Canada uses to track that? Do you think Canada has the ability to do exit tracking?

[Mario Bellissimo]

Yes, they have an exit and entry system. They do track.

CBSA is also developing a new tool called TCI, which is going to potentially use predictive analytics to determine if someone might not comply when they enter Canada.

These are potentially good initiatives, but we've learned from other countries like New Zealand, when they launched similar technology, that it failed and was found not to be predictive. It was found to be discriminatory.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

If I could just interrupt—and you can finish off just explaining the dangers of using AI in where you're going here—what are the dangers of implementing that technology?

[Mario Bellissimo]

The dangers are that if the predictive analytics are used in a way that places people in digital prisons that are not unique to them, that are based on widespread characteristics, we move in areas where—as we've seen internationally, and in some cases in the criminal context here in Canada—we can run afoul of privacy and proper identification and proper predictive work, because the technology is not there yet. That's why we need those legislative guardrails.