Evidence of meeting #13 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reserve.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cindy Blackstock  Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I open this meeting of Monday, June 19, 2006, of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Committee members, you have the orders of the day in front of you. We have today some witnesses. The first witness we'll hear, between 3:30 and 4:30, will be the First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada. We have with us Cindy Blackstock, who is the executive director, and Rachel Levasseur, who is a summer student. Welcome to the committee.

We will have a presentation, and then we'll have an opportunity to ask questions.

You can commence your presentation.

3:35 p.m.

Cindy Blackstock Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, honourable committee members, for taking this time to learn about a great opportunity that's before us as Canadians--that is, to make a difference for this generation of first nations children and young people.

I understand that when Canada comes before an issue, it really wants to know if the problem is well defined. It wants to know if there's an evidence base around it. What are the solutions or options, and have they been well researched? Do we have the resources and the jurisdiction necessary to redress it? The answer in this particular case to all those questions is yes.

We have before us an opportunity to respond well to the needs of first nations children, based on an evidence package of well over 500 pages, done by some of the best researchers in the country. You might ask, how does this relate to education? Well, bilingual and holistic education, in the best of all worlds, needs to go beyond the great honour that we have for French and English in this country. It needs to honour on equal footing traditional ways of knowing, alongside of academic teaching. It also needs to look at the child, himself or herself, who is attending school.

Many of you may be aware that academic success for children is quite highly tied into their own sense of personal well-being and care. It makes sense, doesn't it? If the child is well cared for at home, he or she is going to be able to pay much more attention at school and profit by the type of learning that is before him or her.

We know, for example, in regard to children who are in the care of the child welfare system, not only fewer of them graduate, which is true, but even when they attend school, according to a study done by the Casey Foundation of the United States, they perform at about 15 to 20 percentiles less than their peers.

The other issue is that they'll have higher rates of absenteeism. Why, might you ask, would this be the case? Children in care typically will not only just experience one placement, the trauma of having gone through the child maltreatment and being placed once; it's not unusual for children in care to have upwards of 10 to 15 different placements during the time they're in child welfare care. So that type of mobility really infringes on their ability to stay in care.

Now why would a committee such as yours give any consideration at all to children in child welfare care? How much of a percentage do they make, the children that you're particularly concerned about? Well, according to a study that we completed last year, aboriginal children have long been known to be overrepresented in the child welfare system of this country. But our data systems did not tell us specifically by what amount those children were overrepresented. We thought baseline projections of about 30% of the 67,000 children in child welfare care were aboriginal.

What we found last year, out of sources of four sample provinces, is that 10.23% of first nations status Indian children were in child welfare care in those four provinces, compared to just over 0.5% of non-aboriginal children.

You may ask about Métis children. They too were overrepresented, at about 3.31% of all Métis children in those constituencies.

So we're not just talking about a small number; we're talking about over 10% of the population of status Indian children in four sample provinces being in child welfare care as of May 2005. That number is higher than the number of children in care at any other time of our history in this country, three times the number that were attending residential schools at the height of their operations in the 1940s.

According to John S. Milloy, the historian, in the 1960s, which we now look back and call the “sixties scoop” because of the mass removals of first nations children into child welfare care, 10% were in care as of then. We're now at 10.23%. So on any measure, there are more status Indian children in child welfare care right at this moment.

Why are these kids in care? That was a question we were unable to answer until 1998. But with two cycles of The Canadian Incidence Study of Reported Child Abuse and Neglect, we can now report to the committee that first nations children are less likely to be in child welfare care for sexual, physical, or emotional abuse than their non-aboriginal peers. They are more than twice as likely to be in care because of neglect.

Neglect can mean many things. For aboriginal children, what we found were the key factors were not at the level of the child, but rather, family poverty, the family's poor housing, and parental substance misuse were the key issues.

All these, according to Dr. Nico Trocmé and his researchers, really demand child welfare interventions of a preventative nature, which brings us to the question of what Canada can do.

You see, for child welfare services on reserve, the provinces have legal jurisdiction. But with the exception of Ontario, which is funded under a separate funding agreement, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada provides funding for the child welfare services. There's no link between the provincial statute and the level of funding that's provided by the department, and that has given rise to a number of concerns.

The current funding methodology provides money in two large envelopes. The first envelope is unlimited, and it's called “maintenance”. There is an unlimited amount of funding to bring first nations children into child welfare care and to put them in foster homes. The next batch of funding is called “operations”, and it is for taking care of all the operating mechanisms of the agency. But it's also for funding these preventative services, which are legally required by child welfare statutes to be exhausted before we consider removal.

In a review done in 2000 jointly by the Assembly of First Nations and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, it was found, even as of 2000, that there was 22% less funding in the federal envelope than there was for children being served by the average province, despite the overrepresentation of status Indian children.

There were 17 recommendations tabled in that report, authored by McDonald and Ladd, and none of those recommendations, which I would argue specifically impact the well-being of children, including providing enhanced funding for prevention services, were ever implemented.

In 2004 we were asked, as the First Nations Child and Family Caring Society, to undertake a large multidisciplinary research report, which we did, which was called the Wen:de series of reports, which you have before you in both official languages. The key in these research reports is that we were able to determine, using an evidence base, that the level of underfunding by the federal government in the current child welfare area is $109 million per year. And where is that critical gap? It's in services intended to keep status Indian children safely in their homes, a statutory range of services known as “least disruptive measures”.

The other shortcoming is for inflation. There has not been an inflation adjustment since 1995, resulting in the very limited funds that are currently available falling further and further behind. As we show in the Wen:de series of reports and in all the economic charts we have there, that means that really, there is a shortfall of a minimum of $21 million on inflation losses alone.

The other thing we came up with was jurisdictional disputes. And in terms of dealing with those, we found that first nations children fall into the gaps between jurisdictions many times, and I'm just going to share with you one example.

There was a young boy by the name of Jordan, and Jordan was born in Manitoba to a first nations family. His family placed him in child welfare care, not because he was abused or neglected, but because on reserve there weren't sufficient services for children with disabilities. The only way to get services was to place him in child welfare care. For the first two years of his life, he remained, necessarily, in hospital, until his medical condition stabilized. But the community and the family fundraised $30,000 to refit a van so he could go to his appointments and visit family, and they also found a medically trained foster family. So after the doctor said he could go home, there was an approved plan, and he was to be cared for in his community.

If he had not been a status Indian, on his second birthday or shortly after the doctor had said he could go home, he would have gone home. But because he was a status Indian, the province said they would not fund it, that it was a federal responsibility. And Indian and Northern Affairs said that these were health issues, so Health Canada should fund it. Health Canada said no, the child is in care, so Indian and Northern Affairs should fund it.

The end result was that the collective bureaucracies decided to leave Jordan in hospital, at twice the expense it would have been to keep him at home, not for one month, not even one year, but for two years, while they argued over itemized expenses for Jordan. It wasn't until legal proceedings reached a point where the Government of Canada decided it would put Jordan's interests first that the issue was resolved, but not in time, sadly, for Jordan and his family. Jordan passed away in hospital, never having spent a day in a family home, unnecessarily.

And in our study in the Wen:de reports, 393 of these incidents had happened in 12 sample first nations agencies across the country.

We were diligent and we asked if first nations were responsible for these jurisdictional disputes, because we wanted to know who was. Our bottom line is making sure these children get what they need. In well over 90% of the instances, it was federal or provincial governments alone.

We asked for the adoption, with the support of Jordan's family, through something called “Jordan's Principle”. It's very simple. Where governments provide services that are otherwise available to Canadian children, and a jurisdictional dispute arises, the government of first contact must pay for the service without delay or disruption, and then they can figure out the jurisdictional dispute later. If that had been adopted, then Jordan would have gone home on his second birthday.

Keep in mind that some people have said there's no authority for this. Well, someone has authority. Some level of government must have authority for these services, because they are otherwise being provided to other Canadian children. We're simply saying include first nations children in that suggestion.

We have been at this work--and by we, I mean collectively as first nations agencies in Canada--of trying to get the evidence base and get the support necessary to deal with this inequality for well over ten years now. We feel very confident that we have a solution here that could make a fundamental shift in the number of first nations children in child welfare and therefore really help them in their social success, including in education. It will take political will.

We have costed this out as a package, and it would cost less than 1% of the entire federal surplus budget to do the right thing for these kids. Going forward, the cost savings to Canadian society would be significant. Not only would we have fewer draws in terms of the maintenance budget for the Department of Indian Affairs, in that the cost of keeping children in care would go down over time, but we'd also see savings in the justice system, where children in child welfare care are much more likely to be. We'd see savings in social assistance and those types of things.

I am going to ask that this committee request of the Department of Indian Affairs, the Honourable Minister Jim Prentice, to immediately and fully implement the recommendations of the Wen:de report, including the $109 million needed in full. The $109 million represents the base amount that would ensure first nations children on reserve get equitable child welfare treatment. Anything less than that would mean they would continue to receive second-class service. Without it, we can only expect that the numbers of status Indian children will continue to rise.

When this generation looks back at us, let them say of all of us that we had a solution, we had the opportunity to make a difference, and we did. It's what we would have hoped to have done with the children in residential schools, and it's the opportunity we have before us right now.

Thank you, Honourable Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you, Ms. Blackstock.

We'll start the questioning on the Liberal side first, for seven minutes.

Madam Keeper, go ahead, please.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your presentation.

I am a bit familiar with Jordan's story. I am the member of Parliament for the Churchill riding in Manitoba. I've worked with many people on these issues and in particular on the issue you've talked about, the number of children who are in care with complex medical needs.

I wonder if you could elaborate a little on that. You had mentioned that 393 children were in this situation. I don't know what period of time you're talking about. Maybe you could talk more about the period of time and elaborate a bit more on what these situations entail. Perhaps you could clarify that.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

For the report, we asked first nations agencies to report on jurisdictional disputes that had happened within the last calendar year, between May 2004 and May 2005. It's also important to understand that was in 12 sample first nation agencies. There are over 115 in this country, so you can imagine that if we did a sample of the large collective of agencies, the situation would get far worse.

We also asked which parties were involved. I've already implied that those were primarily federal and provincial governments, but how much time do first nation social workers spend trying to mediate these disputes? What we found is that on average they're taking 54.25 hours per dispute to try to sort it out, to get the child's needs met. In terms of what those children's needs are, in the vast majority of cases they're simple things that are otherwise available to Canadian children. Simply put, with status Indian children there's an opportunity for one department to say they don't have to pay for it and that another department can pay for it; and doing that takes priority over that child's needs.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

So in Jordan's case, then, it was the fact that he was under provincial care and the province would meet his needs if he stayed in the hospital. Is that right?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

In Jordan's situation, had he been non-status, he would have gone home at his second birthday and the province would have picked up the tab.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

But off reserve, right? That's the issue? Right? We're talking about off reserve and on reserve?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

Right, off reserve and on reserve.

And because he was resident on reserve and because he was in child welfare care, that's where the piece stepped in where this started to really be a buck being passed between the respective levels of government.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

I want to highlight that you said there are 393 children in these types of complex medical needs situations, which are jurisdictional battles to meet their best interests. And this was just 12 agencies and this was just one fiscal year.

We know that this issue has been going on for the last two decades at least, right?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

That's right.

And also an important note is that in that 2000 report there was a recommendation to resolve those types of disputes and it was never implemented. Had it been implemented, Jordan would never have found himself in this situation.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Right.

And in terms of the jurisdictional issues, I know that in Manitoba they are currently undergoing a process to have first nations and the Métis nation administer their own child welfare, but as you've stated, it comes under provincial law still.

One of the problems that's happened there as well has been that there is not a mechanism in place to pick up their deficit as there was for child welfare under provincial jurisdiction. So could you maybe talk a little bit about that kind of impact as well and whether you've seen that across the country?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

Yes, it's a large concern, and I'm just going to lay out a little bit more landscape for people.

Off reserve, in general, child welfare services to aboriginal children are delivered by the provinces in most cases. There is some development of aboriginal services for child welfare off reserve but they're mostly limited to urban centres.

We have Native Child and Family Services of Toronto. We also have one in Vancouver and one in Victoria, and Mi'kmaq Family and Children's Services of Nova Scotia, but now there is this new innovative model in Manitoba that holds a lot of promise.

But the issue--

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

But Treasury Board is not going to pick up their deficit, as has been done in the past.

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

That's right.

And the other piece is that our data from Dr. Nico Trocmé show that first nations children are in far greater need of child welfare services than non-aboriginal children. In fact, they're overrepresented by a factor of two at every stage of the assessment process, so right from the report, to substantiating reports, to going into child welfare care.

He would argue that if you're a province and you're going to transfer the program to an aboriginal community, transferring the existing envelope is insufficient because these are all high-needs children. What you need to do is take into account their higher needs, augment that envelope, and build in the safety nets that government already has available to itself.

We've done that a bit in the Wen:de report where we've asked for national pools to be established so that agencies do have some relief from unexpected costs. But that has been a real problem across the country, ensuring that when aboriginal communities take control over child welfare there are actually adequate and flexible enough resources to help them do a good job of what they want to do.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Do I have any more time?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

We're at six minutes, so one minute.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

I want to ask one more question and that would be around culturally appropriate service delivery. You talked about the challenges in terms of the insufficient funding, but then we're also talking about the culturally specific service delivery that is required and the kind of development that is needed for this. Could you talk about what you saw in terms of your study on that?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

One of the key pieces we saw is that many first nations agencies would like to enact their own traditional laws in keeping with child welfare, and many are actually beginning that particular road. The value system underpinning child welfare law as a provincial entity really is informed by a British and French value base. It's also informed by the social conditions confronting most non-aboriginal children, which are very different from those informing aboriginal children.

With culturally based services, it requires a culturally based and framed law that supports the assumptions of that distinct community, and from there, standards and policies and programs that are culturally consistent. What we found in the Wen:de report is that most first nations agencies said that on the current level of inequitable funding, they were not doing the type of job they wanted to do on culturally based services. They said it's not enough just to have first nations folks deliver the service; they want to do more that's in keeping with their communities. One of the founding things about first nations culture is to build up families to support the child in his or her environment, and this formula goes right to the other side.

Off reserve, as you probably well know in your area, many social workers.... I did child protection at a line level for 13 years, and I never received any training on how to work with aboriginal people. Many child protection workers receive maybe half a day to one day. In many universities in this country it's possible to graduate with a bachelor of social work degree never having taken a course in child welfare or a course on aboriginal peoples.

So we must work diligently with the aboriginal communities on and off reserve to ensure culturally based services, because they have the best impact for kids.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

We move to the Bloc, Mr. Lévesque.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Ms. Blackstock. Thank you for joining us here.

Early on in your testimony, you mentioned a study involving several thousand children. You stated that 30% of all children in care were aboriginal and that over 10% of aboriginal children were placed in care. You also stated that some of these children were placed in as many as 10 to 15 different foster homes and that as a result, their intellectual abilities were somewhat affected.

You cited the example of a Manitoba youth who was forced to go on social assistance in order to get treatment. You also said that you would like to control overall heath care for First Nations, both on and off reserves.

I have two very important questions for you. First of all, is there some way for you to control the number of First Nation members and Inuit who live off reserves? Secondly, how does the First Nations child and family services funding formula compare to the funding formula for education on reserves?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

Just to clarify, the number at the beginning was from four sample provinces, comparing what proportion of children were in child welfare care by cultural group. So what we were able to find out is that 0.67% of non-aboriginal children in those four sample provinces were in child welfare care as of May 2005, compared to 10.23% of status Indian children.

With respect to the data, you raise a very important question. In fact, that's something we wanted to find out with first nations child welfare agencies--what data they collect and what their capability is to collect data--because it's so important in informing progressive policy changes and good practice.

Well, the formula was developed in 1989, before many computer systems were used; therefore, it has no money in the formula for any computer hardware or software. Thus we have many first nations agencies on reserve still using pen and paper as their administrative systems.

Off reserve we have provinces collecting data on children in child welfare care in very different ways. Some provinces are very good at collecting disaggregated data on and off reserve--first nations, Métis, Inuit. Others don't collect that data at all. So we can't answer some of the most fundamental questions in child welfare today, questions such as how many children are in child welfare care? We cannot give you a national figure for that, but it's something we're recommending in Wen:de. We said there needs to be a national data centre. Surely, if the state has the power to remove children from our home, we also have an equal and probably heightened responsibility to ensure that we know what's happening for these children and that we're doing the best possible job to do it. And we can only do that with national data collection systems.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Do you have a clear idea of the number of families that live off reserves? I believe you provide services to these families as well.

In point of fact, you're seeking funding for families both on and off reserve. Do you have some way of knowing how many children live on reserves and how many live off reserves? This would give you some idea of service requirements, since you are requesting funding for services.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada

Cindy Blackstock

The $109 million would apply to children on reserve only. Unfortunately, we do not have good data in all regions on the level of funding that is necessary and on how it should be distributed for child welfare services off reserve at this particular point in time.

In terms of the numbers, we can only go by the same data that you have access to as a committee, which is the census data. AFN would suggest that about 60% of all first nations people live on reserve and about 40% are off reserve at the current moment.

We are working with the provinces to try to get a better identification of the numbers of first nations children off reserve, as well as to help them work through how to appropriately fund culturally based services for children off reserve, but those are in the beginning stages.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

Madam Crowder.