Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 26th, 2006

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to both of you for taking the time to join us here today. I found your presentations very informative and insightful.

I take it, very clearly, that the very best interventions, in terms of advancing post-secondary education for native peoples, are really investments in the ECE, K to 12 regime. It occurs to me there are really two realities for native peoples: the reality of federal schools on reserve and those that are off reserve and, I'll say, integrated.

I have a situation in my own riding with Beausoleil First Nation, which is on an island. Through the early childhood years and K to 8 they're at their first nation, and it's a different reality, and then for 9 to 12 they have to leave their community for three months, because of the ice, and board in other non-native homes to go to high school.

You mentioned a lack of information about measuring these kinds of outcomes, but I wonder if you could speak even anecdotally about how those two different streams have created different outcomes for native people. Are there any lessons to be learned from that one stream versus the other, that being on reserve, where it's just native children going through the education system, enriching their culture, as opposed to those who have been in an integrated situation—Métis, non-first nations, natives—and what are the differences in those two outcomes?

[Nathan Matthew]

The difference in outcome hasn't been that great. Both first nations schools and public schools are challenged, in terms of success, generally speaking, in attendance, retention of students to grade 12, or to whatever grade they go to, and gaining specific academic skills. There's still a challenge there on both sides, so I don't see either....

The ultimate solution is making sure the first nations have the jurisdiction to run their own education programs in the same fashion. We should have jurisdiction over a whole lot of other things as well. But for education very specifically, in first nations schools, where the schools are run by the community, the experience parents have, in terms of making decisions to the benefit of their own kids, is really a benefit to the community, in terms of just oversight and responsibility for learning. There's a lot of capacity at that level, in terms of the adults, and I think that's a real benefit that's really not measured.

On the public side, often the kids are just away to a public school and there are very few provisions for first nations parents to be involved, certainly in the governance aspect. In terms of where we've been on both sides, in terms of first nations and public schools, there are still challenges.

In B.C., the challenge for first nations schools, until recently, and certainly it still is---we were underfunded up to 30% less for first nations schools compared to public schools of the same size and location. Research has shown that. We recently, last year, have made a change in the province of B.C. in the way Indian Affairs allocates funding for first nations schools. We're still challenged, of course, and that's something that has to be dealt with. The public schools have signed a 6% increase in teachers' salaries, and there is no balance on the first nations side to reflect that, because we're competing for teachers as well.

There are challenges, and they are the reasons for there being more benefit on one side or the other, depending on how well either side can be supported by first nations and how well they can attend to the concerns and the circumstance of first nations people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Young and Mr. Matthew, for coming here to share your experiences with us.

My question is directed to Mr. Matthew.

We were told that you were actively involved in negotiating a three-party agreement between the Government of British Columbia, the federal government, and First Nations, with a view to making significant improvements to education at the primary and secondary levels.

Could you give us a brief overview of this agreement and tell us which components will combine to produce positive results? What key components will increase the number of school graduates, since surely this is the objective sought?

This agreement is often held up as a model and I'd like to know which components are responsible for making it a success. Can you also tell me why real results will be achieved over the next seven years, instead of hearing people say that this was merely another agreement born of good intentions?

[Nathan Matthew]

We signed the memorandum of understanding several years ago; I think it was in 1996. The province, the federal government, and first nations agreed to work together to improve the success of aboriginal learners, first nations learners, in both public schools and first nations schools.

Of course, we've been talking with the province. We've had an association with them for quite a while. It seems that we've had a longer association with the federal government, and of course we have our own aspirations. All parties said they wanted to do something about the terrible circumstances in education for first nations learners. We finally said we'd agree to work together on the issue, rather than having a kind of spy versus spy or an adversarial position. There are many reasons to argue about who is responsible, how much money is needed, and what should be done, instead of getting together and putting our best efforts towards collaboration and cooperation. So we did that, and we challenged the federal government for a signature in terms of an agreement.

After that, we invited other major stakeholders: the teachers' union; the BCTF; the trustees of about 100 school districts; the superintendents; the treasurers' association; and the B.C. College of Teachers. All of the significant players who had responsibilities for various aspects of governance, certification of teachers, and curriculum agreed to work together. We meet regularly on a quarterly basis. There are quite a few of us of those stakeholder groups around the table, and we set objectives for ourselves. Each of our organizations agrees to participate and take the responsibility for certain aspects and for working together on it.

Interestingly, one of the first priorities that we identified was racism. All parties agreed that racism was a real thing in British Columbia and it had to be dealt with. Another aspect was to get more first nations aboriginal teachers into the system. We developed an aboriginal teacher education program or a strategy to provide more teaching by first nations aboriginals in the public and first nations school system.

By working together, we feel that we all have a responsibility and we're accountable to each other. Nothing is formal, and we don't write reports to government or anything like that. But amongst ourselves, we report back to our own constituent bodies. We feel there's more collaboration and working together than there was before.

I think that in some of those areas, particularly in the area of data gathering, we've been able to work together and have agreed that, yes, it's important to have identification numbers for first nations learners. We can track the students from public systems into first nations, and back and forth, and none of the students falls into the gap.

We can look at statistics. Throughout the province we now have a comprehensive data-gathering exercise in the public school system that shows how we're doing in terms of graduation rates, success on provincial exams, attendance, and that type of thing. It's something that's significant in all areas of the province. All districts receive their own reports in terms of how aboriginal learners are doing in the system.

We're now working jointly on projects for data gathering in the first nations school system. Of course, there's no such thing, and there's no budget for it. But we're working toward a program in which we can have compatible data-gathering processes so that we can share information with the province and with the other stakeholder groups.

That really is it. It works for us. We feel we're working together, and if we have a real concern, we know we can sit down at the table at least every three or four months and bring the issue up. It's really dealt with, depending on whom you talk to, more or less effectively.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

We'll move to the Liberal side.

Mr. Russell, do you have some questions?

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning.

First of all, I certainly want to give heartfelt thanks for the testimony you have provided here this morning. I want to honour Mary's story. I've heard only a portion of it, but I think it's vitally important to understand the human aspect of what a lot of aboriginal students go through to reach the heights you have reached. Mr. Matthew talked about role models. Well, there are a lot of role models in this room, and you two are among them. I look at Gary Merasty, a fellow aboriginal person, who has accomplished things.

In my own right, I came from a community of 50 people on the coast of Labrador. We had a one-room school until grade 8. We had no water and no sewers in our community until 1990. There were no telephones until 1990. So I understand somewhat. And Mary's story reminded me that we have to keep remembering our roots--where we come from--and the challenges we have as we go through.

This is not an easy study we're undertaking as a committee. It has huge breadth and depth. We're going to have to try to focus on concrete recommendations that we can put forward and to which we can have the government respond in order to advance the issues of aboriginal post-secondary students in particular. I don't think we can lose sight of the primary and the secondary, and of what's happening even at the community level.

We have a human resource shortage in the country--that's what everybody tells us--in almost every occupation, from doctors, nurses, and lawyers, right down to people who are going to drive the oil trucks in the Alberta tar sands. A lot of people look to aboriginal people as a pool of human capital--for want of better words--or as a human resource, but I don't see the emphasis being put on aboriginal people to fill the void that people say exists in society.

I think that's an overarching message. Are we not valuable enough to invest in, or, in other words, to meet what corporations want, or what government wants, or what companies want? I'm very concerned about what that message says to aboriginal people in general, because we see cuts when we should be seeing money being invested.

I find that the committee's study and the witnesses' study—not to take anything away—really focus on university. There seems to be a propensity towards university in our discussions, whereas the post-secondary imbalance is much more than that. It involves the trades, the technical colleges, and all of these other types of programs that are out there.

Can either of you comment on what's being done with a focus on post-secondary education, for instance, when we talk about entrance requirements? Entrance requirements for trade schools or technical colleges are not as rigorous as they are for university, generally speaking. I'm not saying we should downplay ourselves either and say, okay, just because we don't meet grade 12 qualifications, we'll all be shuffled off into trades college. But there are valuable life experiences and careers at that level as well. I think we should also talk about that a little bit.

I'm just wondering if you guys can focus on it, because my experience is that there are some good things happening, like those at the University of Winnipeg, and even at Memorial University of Newfoundland, and at universities in B.C. What is being done at the trade school level, for instance, with a view to cultural retention or language retention? Is the same sort of thing happening at that level? Can any of you speak to that particular experience?

[Nathan Matthew]

I think when you say the entry requirements might be a little less than for post-secondary, in many cases they're not. The entry into a lot of the apprentice areas requires math and science now in ways it didn't before. That's becoming a real challenge. I know in B.C., and probably across the country, students' success in math is significantly low. So that's a barrier; there's something there. Certainly industry seems to be paying more attention to this issue than government. I know in B.C. and Alberta, the industry--the body that needs the workers--is going out in various ways and trying to get them.

On the federal side, with Indian Affairs in particular, they don't have a real interest in trades training. Human Resources and Social Development Canada is involved in that area. I don't know if the two bodies really connect and collaborate in a fashion that would be to the full benefit of first nations. I'd like to see the AHRDAs be a little more connected with first nations. The AHRDAs tend to deal with a lot of off-reserve interests, and that's a challenge as well--there's no direct connection to first nations governance.

The other is around using social development funds to support education. I think there's some real potential there. They can support learners through social development dollars to assist them in going through their post-secondary training. I think there's a lot of benefit in that in terms of combining some of the dollars that are out there already so as to take the pressure off. Certainly there are a lot of opportunities.

The other issues are on adult education. In B.C. we have adult education possibilities for first nations in the public school system. That doesn't exist across the board. I think there should be appropriate support for adults to attend secondary schools. That's a huge cost saving. It's a lot less expensive to educate learners in public schools than in universities and colleges. You can stay in your own community, or closer to your own home.

I think there are a lot of opportunities, and if we could just become a little more flexible in our funding and maybe a little bit more collaborative with other departments, we could access dollars that currently aren't available.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Bruinooge.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I want to pass along my thanks to both the witnesses. Of course, Mary comes from my home city, and having had the chance to tour her facility, I must say it is a great and welcoming place for aboriginal people to come to in the city of Winnipeg.

When you mentioned that there have to be more advanced schools out there, in terms of their aboriginal programs, I would have to say that the University of Winnipeg probably is one of the most advanced, especially with some of the things they're doing in terms of the way they're utilizing aboriginal education in science.

I have an initial question I'd like to ask Mary.

In terms of your experiences, you've achieved a great degree of success. You have your doctorate, which is fantastic. In terms of anybody's education, it's a very high achievement. I guess I'd like you to talk about how you've succeeded in spite of all the negative influences you've had. You must be able to point to some things that aided you in the process you went through in your life to get to this point, because clearly you were successful.

[Mary Young]

I talk about my parents quite a bit. This is very specific: my father taught me how to fish one day, and he showed me how to cast the line. I kept doing that, and he went and stood over there, where he knew he would catch fish. I was getting quite bored. I was getting impatient, and I thought, “I'm not enjoying this”, but I kept doing it anyway. Then all of a sudden I felt a tug and I panicked, and I started trying to reel the fish in quickly. A voice from over there said, “[Witness speaks in her native language], Mary; let it go every once in a while. [Witness speaks in her native language]; it will get tired after a while and you will know when to bring it in.”

I cried out for my father to come and help me. He never ran down from that hill. He showed me guidance from where he stood. He taught me about patience. He taught me about perseverance. He honoured me, because he believed I could do it. So when you ask me to remember, I remember that afternoon as if it just happened.

When I worked at the University of Winnipeg, when I first got there, somebody gave me six months. They said, “She'll only last six months.” That attitude was so prevalent in the seventies and the eighties, because people believed we couldn't hold on to a job.

I started looking for allies. I started at the U of W in 1984. I knew there were people in the university who didn't believe in what I was trying to do, which was to welcome aboriginal students and make them believe they belonged in university.

Many times I walked out of that university and I questioned, “What the hell am I doing here?” So I started looking at my education. I'd finished my BA, and I thought, “If I'm going to encourage aboriginal students to go to university, I better go and get some more education.” So I started taking native studies at the University of Manitoba, because I didn't know anything else. That's what we do sometimes when we are not informed, when we don't know what career we want. It was by accident that I was able to do my post-baccalaureate certificate in education.

One day I wanted a new chair for my office, because I had hand-me-downs all these years. The person who purchased the chairs said, “Mary, you know, if you had a PhD, you could get a new chair.” I thought, “Okay, I'll try that.”

I finished my master's degree, and then I was hooked. I was hooked on schooling now.

I had to move away to Edmonton. My husband stayed in Winnipeg. Do you know how many days I ate my words there? When I counsel and advise aboriginal students since, I say, “Study. This is how long you should study. You should read, do your homework.”

It's difficult. It's difficult when you miss your family and your children because you can't afford to bring them with you. There were days when I could have quit my PhD and my master's. But I have a responsibility to my nieces and nephews. I have a responsibility to my community. I have to give something back, and that's the way I did it.

When I got back to the University of Winnipeg after my leave, the office I had was shared by the student adviser and the transition year coordinator. There was another office off the student lounge, and the liaison officer was there. And there was a little space that was going to be my office. The room had pipes. They weren't covered. There were holes in the wall. One day this elder, a good friend of mine, came in to visit me. He sat down and he burst out laughing and he said, “This is the kind of office they give you for a PhD?” There are times when you have to laugh. Otherwise, if I didn't see the sense of humour in those situations, man, I'd be dead. And I didn't want to give up.

So [Witness speaks in native language], I honour all of you today for inviting me and for recognizing my achievements, because sometimes I still don't believe I did it. Gitchi-Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

We move on to the Bloc, Mr. Lévesque, please.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Good day, Ms. Young, Mr. Matthew.

I'm very impressed. I'm wondering if this kind of ambition is only seen in Manitoba. This past summer, I met an Ojibway woman, in Sweden, no less. She works at the Canadian embassy in Sweden and speaks four languages. She had to learn all of these languages in order to integrate into society.

Is the situation in other provinces similar to what we're seeing in Quebec? I'm not familiar with provincial jurisdiction over education matters in other provinces. I also have no idea of the number of First Nations living in the other provinces.

Quebec has negotiated an agreement with one First Nation pursuant to which various communities have agreed to meet under the direction of a grand council. Since the negotiation of this agreement, this nation has evolved so quickly that it has become a very important partner for Quebec.

I listened to Mr. Matthew share his vision of education with the committee. With respect to post-secondary education, I have already taken an initiative similar to what he suggests. I come from northern Quebec and I'm trying to establish a First Nations centre. It would be linked to the university campus, but would allow students to remain true to their aboriginal culture. I was very impressed by what Mr. Matthew had to say. What he described is very similar to what we are trying to do.

Ms. Young, you mentioned the turnover rate among the teaching staff which can be attributed in part to the lack of respect for aboriginal culture. Mr. Matthew hinted at racism. I'm wondering if we can establish a link of that nature. In our region, those First Nations that have not banded together are struggling more to get by. When members of these communities come to a large city, their behaviour is more aggressive than the Cree, for example, which leads to feelings of resentment among the general public. People in fact do not distinguish between the various First Nation communities. I don't know if you've experienced similar problems in your respective provinces, but that's what we're seeing in Quebec right now.

With respect to education funding, bearing in mind, naturally, respective provincial jurisdictions and existing laws, would you opt for providing funding to the provincial government to allow it to set up a committee of aboriginal leaders from each province to make decisions, or would you rather have the federal government provide education funding directly to a association of First Nations in each province?

Finally, is the lack of respect toward your culture a problem noted at the government level or among certain segments of the population?

[Nathan Matthew]

That's an interesting question. Yes, I think the attitudes towards first nations people come from a very high level. The Prime Minister and the cabinet of this country have made decisions, purposeful decisions, that have excluded first nations from the benefits of full citizenship in this country for many years. The quality of life that Canadians just take for granted in many cases is just a dream for first nations in terms of socio-economic well-being. So yes, I think it's a political issue.

Yes, I believe there should be funding set aside for first nations organizations in the regions to negotiate for themselves what they believe to be appropriate provisions in post-secondary education, whether it be for their own institutions or for public institutions.

I know that in the province of B.C. we have a post-secondary education committee that's not very well funded--the funding isn't secure--but we have many first nations that come together to think for ourselves about what's good for our learners in post-secondary institutions. We do that without any security of funding down the road. We got funding for this year--it's bits and pieces--but we come together knowing that it's important for us to represent ourselves, to develop our own institutions, but to develop our interests in public institutions and to represent ourselves there in the sense that we're the only ones who can talk about culture and we're the best ones to talk about the interests of our own learners.

I'm not sure how we could mandate it, but I think if you provided funding for provincial first nations organizations, they would get to the point where they would be signing agreements with the province and with the post-secondary institutions about policy and about the direction and the manner in which those institutions and those governments can support first nations post-secondary learners.

Really, I think it's important that first nations represent themselves and that this government support that representation, just the coming together, having meetings, having discussions with government and post-secondary institutions. I think that's really important. How it fits into the funding package, I don't know, but I think it's necessary that it be done, and there's a band of funding to support first nations organizations to represent themselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Before I go to Mr. Albrecht, the chair would like to have the pleasure of asking a question.

One of the statements you made, Mr. Matthew, was with regard to funding. We've been assured by the department that the funding per student is equivalent to that of the regular public school in British Columbia, or any other place in Canada. In fact, in northern Canada it's significantly higher than the average.

When you talk about funding, are you talking about the per student funding or are you talking about the organizational curricula of funding that needs to happen to provide that framework and that direction to implement policy and actions that are going to increase the number of graduates from K to 12 who are also going on to post-secondary education?

[Nathan Matthew]

When you talk about the per student funding, is that combining the total education budget that INAC has, or is it per student in terms of elementary, secondary, and post-secondary? Do you discriminate your funding packages?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I'm saying that in the province of British Columbia it's about $5,500 per student. That's what the school districts or boards get for funding, and we have been told that the same amount is being given per student for first nations students.

Is that a correct statement?

[Nathan Matthew]

For first nations learners from reserves who attend public schools, the federal government pays exactly the same block rate for that seat in the public schools. That's what the province bills us, or you guys—the federal government—for the education of status on-reserve learners.

In terms of how much it costs to run a school, where our schools are located we are challenged right now in being able to provide the same level of service that the general public takes for granted in public schools, that is, to pay salaries that are appropriate, to provide professional development, to provide transportation, to provide facilities and operation and maintenance of our facilities. In all of those factors there is inequity. In total it has to do with economies of scale.

The other related issues are second- and third-level services. The Province of B.C. has the Ministry of Education to make all the decisions and the laws. On our side there is very little provision for that kind of service to provide direction toward education and to set up education in the way the province does. Yet the expectation of the federal government when it provides us with the money is to provide the same level of service. Actually, we sign on the line saying that we're going to do that when in fact we know we're not getting sufficient money to accomplish it.

That's a big issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Yes. That's the answer I wanted.

Mr. Albrecht hasn't had an opportunity to speak. He's the only one.

Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

There were two parts to my question. You intervened before Ms. Young had a chance to answer my question concerning the turnover of teaching staff.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We have a format here--

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ms. Young didn't have an opportunity to respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

--that we have to follow, and Mr. Albrecht hasn't had an opportunity to pose a question. I'm going to ask Mr. Albrecht if he would ask his question, please.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will just add my words of thanks to both of you for appearing here today.

I certainly resonated with much of your story, Ms. Young, especially as it relates to your experience with your parents. I applaud you for bringing that component to the table today because many times that aspect of education is not given the kind of support it needs, especially as you identified the cultural and the spiritual roots that make you who you are today.

Also, with regard to determining the content of education, Mr. Matthew, in terms of your signature on the tripartite agreement, I assume you're a proponent of that and eager to see that succeed in the K to 12 area. I would certainly agree with you that it has the potential to also be one of the huge measures of success for post-secondary education.

I have two questions. One is for Ms. Young.

You mentioned a big problem with teacher turnover, and I'd like you to address that briefly, if you could.

Then regarding the grade 12 graduation certificate and how much shortfall there is in terms of the people accessing that certificate and having adequate preparation for post-secondary, could you identify, Mr. Matthews, some of the reasons for that and then what numbers of people are enrolled in that interim preparatory course that you mentioned? Where does the funding come from? I think you mentioned it's primarily from the students themselves. Are there any other avenues of funding?

Could I ask Ms. Young to respond? Her response to my question might satisfy some of Mr. Lévesque's question as well. That was the intent.

[Mary Young]

Can you repeat the question, please?