Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I will open this meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development for Thursday, October 19, 2006. Committee members, you have the orders of the day before you. We'll be talking about post-secondary education from 9 o'clock until 10:30.

Today the witnesses are from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. We have with us Christine Cram, acting senior assistant deputy minister, socio-economic policy and regional operations; Richard Budgell, executive coordinator of post-secondary education, education branch; Allan MacDonald, director general, office of the federal interlocutor for Métis and non-status Indians; and Mary Tobin Oates, senior adviser, Inuit relations secretariat. Welcome to the committee.

We also have visitors from the school back here, and I welcome you today. Once again, I want to say thank you for the hospitality that we enjoyed when we had the opportunity to visit the school. It's good to see you here.

We're going to have presentations for 10 minutes, and then we'll have questions. Who will start off the presentation?

Madame Cram. Thank you very much.

[Christine Cram, Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-Economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you, and good morning.

I would like to thank the chair and the committee members for the opportunity to speak on the subject of education this morning. I am very pleased to see that there are so many young people here today, because indeed, what this committee is considering now is of great importance to them.

INAC officials last spoke to the standing committee about first nation education in June of this year, and at that time we committed to coming back to speak to you again to provide a report on our progress to date.

Today, we will speak more specifically about post-secondary education but we would also like to take this opportunity to provide you with an update on First Nations education.

I'll start by reiterating a few key points that were made by INAC officials in June. The $1.5 billion in planned education expenditures in 2005-06 represents over 25% of total departmental expenditures. These expenditures support education programs, the majority relating to elementary and secondary instruction for first nation students ordinarily resident on reserve. As you probably know, the overwhelming majority of education programs are delivered by first nations and Inuit communities and organizations.

Since Departmental officials last appeared before the Standing Committee, we have completed our draft policy framework, with the involvement of the First Nations, that outlines rules and responsibilities of the department and of First Nations. We are now working towards a management framework that will renew and improve program delivery in all areas of First Nations education.

Post-secondary education expenditures account for about $305 million of the $1.5 billion. Within post-secondary expenditures, there are three component areas of funding.

As the first component, most of the $305 million is directed towards the post-secondary student support program, which pays for tuition, materials, and living allowances for first nation and Inuit students. This program is not residency based--that is, first nation recipients can live on or off reserve--but it requires that the recipients be status Indians or recognized Inuit.

The second component is the Indian studies support program, which provides funding to post-secondary institutions for programs and services that are specifically tailored to first nations and Inuit students. An example of this program is an aboriginal leadership and management program at Blue Quills First Nations College in Alberta, in partnership with Athabasca University. In 2004-05, program expenditures in the Indian studies support program component were approximately $20 million.

The third component is the university college entrance preparation program, which provides expenses to students for one year of preparatory course work prior to university or college administration. This program is for those who do not have high school credentials that would qualify them for admission to a post-secondary institution.

Today, almost 100% of post-secondary education students support funding is administered by First Nations and Inuit administering organizations. Unlike K/12 education, for which the Department holds a statutory responsibility, our involvement with post-secondary education is a result of a policy dating back several decades.

In 2004-05, INAC post-secondary funding supported approximately 23,000 students and over 50 post-secondary institutions.

Over time, the investment in first nations and Inuit post-secondary education has increased significantly, as have participation rates. For example, from 1976 to today, the number of students supported through post-secondary education programs has increased close to tenfold.

We know, however, that qualified applicants are currently turned down by some first nations because of a shortage of funding in the first nations post-secondary allocation in that year. Many first nations students participate in post-secondary education using other sources of funding, such as the Canada student loans program.

There are also a number of scholarships being made available from the private sector for aboriginal students. I think it's very positive that these are growing. There are also mechanisms, such as the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation, that offer scholarships and bursaries.

The Department of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada's aboriginal human resources development strategy also makes funding available for skills training.

Despite the large increase over several decades in the number of post-secondary students supported, post-secondary attainment rates for First Nations and Inuit do not yet match those of other Canadians. According to the 2001 census, 5 per cent of Aboriginals 15 years and older have a university degree, compared to 16 per cent for the Canadian population in general.

The picture is brighter in the area of college education and trade certification. Aboriginal people have attained college diplomas and trade certification at levels comparable to the rest of the population: 27% among the total population; compared to 25% among the aboriginal population.

Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is trying to understand why post-secondary attainment rates are not comparable. A recent report by the researcher Michael Mendelson, entitled Aboriginal Peoples and Post-secondary Education in Canada, uses census data to provide a picture of the state of affairs of aboriginal peoples in post-secondary education.

His main finding is that there is a pressing need to address the very low aboriginal high school graduation rates in order to increase participation rates among first nations and Inuit in post-secondary education. He says that the main problem in the capacity of the K to 12 system is to get students into post-secondary education. The good news is that aboriginal students who graduate from high school are just as likely as students from the general Canadian population to go on to and graduate from post-secondary education.

I understand that Mr. Mendelson will be appearing before this committee next week.

As part of the Department's comprehensive review of all education programs, we committed to undertake a review of our post-secondary education program. That review has involved the participation of First Nations and Inuit organizations, and consultation with other government departments. Consultation with other stakeholders on policy options to upgrade the program is anticipated over the coming months.

Over the past year and a half, as part of their review, many diagnostic reports on post-secondary education were completed. Some of the findings of these reports are as follows.

First nations would like to see increased funding in the program to reflect increases in tuition fees and cost of living and increases in overall demand. There is also a widespread recommendation to expand the length of time allowed for the university and college entrance program from one year to two years. There's also a proposal to provide support for post-secondary education and training programs of less than one academic year.

In response to these findings and our own continuing analysis, we are developing options for a re-engineered program, including new delivery models. These options will be developed with first nations and Inuit students, educators, service providers, and organizations over the coming months.

We realize we need to do much better to ensure first nations and Inuit children and youth have the academic footing to move on to post-secondary studies and have the skills to take advantage of the merging opportunities resulting from investments in resource development projects, such as the oil sands and the Mackenzie Valley pipeline, and the retirement of baby boomers.

All parties recognize that the status quo is not accomplishing the desired results on reserve and that better coordination and a stronger education system would properly equip learners to reach their potential.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Are there going to be further presentations by anyone?

[Christine Cram]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

On the Liberal side, who would like to take the lead?

Madam Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all of you for coming here today.

I'm struck by your closing comments that much more has to be done, and I appreciate that. I was also struck, as you went through your presentation, by your acknowledgement that post-secondary education is a result of social policy dating back several decades and is not a matter of law.

What I'm interested in is that the Constitution recognizes that the provinces have responsibility for education, but I don't know that it means education for just K to 12. You've said here today that INAC's position is that post-secondary education is a matter of social policy rather than, in my words, of fulfilling a legal obligation. How does the department justify this position? What options has the department brought forward to clarify which government has primary responsibility for supporting first nations post-secondary education?

A subsequent question is this. If the federal government views post-secondary education as a matter of social policy and not of law, and since INAC has the fiduciary responsibility to ensure adequate education for first nations, while recognizing, as you indicated, that first nations are not getting the opportunities or are perhaps failing within the post-secondary education system, my question is, why aren't you reacting—or perhaps why isn't the federal government reacting—in a more aggressive manner?

[Christine Cram]

Thank you for the question.

To explain the departmental position, this committee I'm sure is aware that there is very little legislative base for the department to operate under. The main piece of legislation is the Indian Act. The Indian Act speaks about education, but how it speaks about education is very much related to children; it was to do with ensuring that children went to school, and it speaks particularly about children between the ages of 6 and 16. As this committee knows, the Indian Act is a very old and outdated piece of legislation.

When we look at what the department is responsible for in terms of law, we have to use our statutory instrument. I'm sure this committee has considered that this statutory instrument is out of date and needs replacing.

You're right, there are other instruments, such as the Constitution, that speak to aboriginal and treaty rights, and maybe at some point in the future there might be a different legislative base. But at the present time the legislative base we are using for the provision of programs is the Indian Act.

We still recognize that post-secondary education is a very important program, and that's why we spend over $300 million a year on it. As I said in my remarks, we recognize that this doesn't address all of the need and that we need to do more. That's why we're reviewing the policy and the programs in that regard.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Do I have time for a follow-up? Then I'll pass it to Mr. Merasty.

You talk about reviewing the programs and the policies. While the reviews are going on, many young people are being left behind. What happens? It strikes me that the young people who are sitting in this room and living in communities are just as talented as young people throughout the country.

What happens to these young people who are being left behind? What opportunities are there for them?

[Christine Cram]

You raise a very good point. I would simply say, though, that the research is showing us that where we need to primarily invest is in kindergarten to grade 12, because what we need to do is get children to graduate from secondary school so they can then go on to post-secondary.

I would say the government's top priority is on K to 12, to try to get the graduation rates increased. Then there'll be more kids in post-secondary. As you correctly point out, there are kids now who aren't able to access post-secondary. Also, if we are successful in getting more kids to graduate out of grade 12, then there will be a higher demand for post-secondary services. We need to figure out how to address that.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I appreciate what you're saying, and I've had fairly intimate involvement with the K to 12 system and aboriginal education, so I know the challenges. But I also know that there are large numbers of aboriginal young people who today are not able to access the post-secondary education system in all its different manifestations. That's my concern, because it is opportunities lost for young people today.

[Christine Cram]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

You have a minute, I think, Gary.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I have a very quick question.

One of the big issues I've had to deal with as an aboriginal leader in the past and in this role right now--and I raised it in the last committee meeting--is myths. The media and the general public largely say that this gap that exists is the fault of the first nations and Métis students. This is something that troubles me, because sometimes blame is assigned to the aboriginal community. This is a big problem because it demoralizes and it draws attention away from some real solutions that could be focused on, because there are success stories out there.

We've all acknowledged that the waiting lists are long, that the funding growth has been 2%, and yet the population growth has been three or four times that amount annually.

How do you think the department can help tackle this myth? Aside from increasing the funding, do you think there is a role for a department of government to actually get the right message out there? This message is so damaging and so blaming that it actually constricts. Do you see a role for the department to try to change that myth?

[Christine Cram]

That's a very good point you raise, and as I mentioned in the remarks, when aboriginal young people go to university, they have the same success rate as all Canadians.

I should say that the department is working on a project at the present time on success stories and recognizes that there needs to be much more done in that regard. We're trying to find success stories in all different areas--business, housing, innovation--so certainly we should look at what we can do in education.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In fact, you are divided. Under the Indian Act—how I hate the name of that title!—you are legally bound to provide education to Aboriginals up until the age of 16 years old.

From what I gather, spending of the $305 million is left to the discretion of the minister. This is of concern to me. Am I right in saying that this envelope may possibly one day disappear?

[Christine Cram]

Technically, yes, but politically speaking...

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Regardless of the political or technical reasons, we know that the members on the other side will find a way to maneuver tactics. Just think about it: they could very well eliminate this envelope. On a political standpoint, this would be difficult, but technically speaking, it is possible, because the envelope falls under the discretion of the Minister.

I would like to know who is the director general for socio-economic policy and regional operations.

[Christine Cram]

She is a lady by the name of Joan Katz. She is currently the acting director general.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

That is what I wanted to hear.

Like Ms. Katz, you are also in an acting position. There are many managers in acting positions in this department. There has even been a minister and a deputy minister. I do not mean to say that the minister is an acting minister. It is an errant thought that unfortunately just escaped.

I would like to know if you read the June 2005 report produced by PricewaterhouseCoopers on post-secondary education, as prepared by the evaluation and internal audit Branch. Have you seen this document?

[Christine Cram]

I have not seen that document, but Richard has.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

So I am going to ask you a very specific question. The report contains five recommendations. I have read them, but I am not going to list them, for fear the chairman might put a stop to it.

These five recommendations on post-secondary education contained very specific instructions to the department. Where are you at in the concrete application of those recommendations?

[Richard Budgell, Executive Coordinator of Post-secondary Education, Education Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

I guess I would say that we have evaluations of all of the program components under post-secondary education. We have, in addition, the report of the Auditor General.

The process that we're now going through, which we have to complete by June 2007, jointly with our partners, with first nations and Inuit, is to come up with our response to the research that's been done, including the evaluations, other studies that we've had done, mostly over the past year, and come up with a clear path forward on how we're going to improve program delivery and make sure it benefits the maximum number of students. So it is all being considered in terms of moving forward.

We take those kinds of things very seriously, evaluations, and I would say especially the review from the Auditor General, and we know that's exactly what we have to grapple with--to come up with a new management framework by June 2007.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I agree with you. I do not remember who appeared before the committee this week, but I believe that the individual was speaking on behalf of First Nations. He said that the Department had enough reports on post-secondary education. I am pretty much of the same view, especially when I read this. The report says the following:

- consult with the Director General, Finance, Branch of Corporate Services, to review the status of compliance reviews [...]

It also says:

In practice, this might mean a committee that meets at regular intervals to establish monitoring guidelines and to review and act on the results;

That was recommendation No. 4. Has it been implemented? Has the committee been created, and if so, is it made up of just officials or does it include First Nations and Inuit people?

[Richard Budgell]

That specific committee doesn't exist, no. We have been working with a working group with the Assembly of First Nations and Inuit representatives on post-secondary education, but the specific committee that you've described doesn't exist.