Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2006

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

If a community doesn't have the demand that you're talking about, in terms of students who actually need the money, but they have received the cash based on this ratio according to the population, they could take that money and spend it elsewhere.

[Richard Budgell]

Yes.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Whereas the community next door that happens to have the demand, actually demand above and beyond the ratio allocation of cash, they unfortunately wouldn't be able to fund all the students that they need to.

[Richard Budgell]

That's right. That's obviously a problem.

One of our regions recently has been trying to figure out whether we can do an allocation on the basis of expenditures and then move money amongst first nations to where need might be greater. The terms and conditions of the program and the nature of the funding instruments to first nations do not require that this funding be spent only on post-secondary.

Now, that can change. If the terms and conditions of the program are changed, that can change. It can be delivered in a way so that it would be required to be spent on post-secondary education. We do this in other areas such as special education, for instance. That funding is targeted, is required to be spent in that area. If we were to change the terms and conditions of the program, that could be changed.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

I like many of the approaches to life of some of my colleagues who are chiefs--friends, I would say--and one of them is that they prefer not to have more bureaucracy employed on them. I think that would be the challenge, identifying a methodology that can help ensure that the money gets through to students who actually need it, but at the same time, not adding more paperwork to communities that are really drowning in paperwork already. I see that as one of the biggest challenges facing the requirement of post-secondary for first nation communities.

Mr. Chair, do I have more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

No, you don't.

Mr. Merasty.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Taking the example that was given, to what level of incidence do you think the situation described by Mr. Bruinooge occurs across the country, in which the money is taken in theory and may be applied to other areas?

[Richard Budgell]

That's not something we would have any information on. We don't require that first nations do that kind of reporting.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Would it be fair to say that it is not widespread?

[Richard Budgell]

I have absolutely no way of answering that question.

[Christine Cram]

Could I answer there? I think the only reason it wouldn't be spent is where, as I discussed earlier, one of the problems is getting enough kids graduating out of grade 12. In order to know how much you're going to need on post-secondary, you actually have to have some students who are going to be able to be admitted into post-secondary institutions. You could have circumstances where you had one first nation that didn't need everything it had and so it didn't use it. We know there are other first nations that have big demands.

So I would say this is not a matter of misusing funds; it's that, in order to be able to use post-secondary funds, an individual community has to have students it can fund. If it doesn't have any, then it could use it for kindergarten to grade 12, or something like that.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Then it's also fair to say--Mr. Lemay was reading from the briefing book that was provided to us, and looking at other briefings--it is an overall trend that there is not enough money in the system right now to meet the demand for post-secondary funding. I have some graphs that tell me very clearly that although in the report you say there has been significant investment, and there has been that 2% growth, the population has far outstripped that growth in the demand. We're seeing, in 1990, 2% enrolment of first nations in post-secondary and the Canadian population with 6% enrolment, to now 16%, and we're at 5%. In approximately 1994-95, the first nation enrolment went up to about 6.5%, and it has been dropping because the growth of the population is causing a net decline in the actual enrolments overall. To me, that suggests a huge problem. Would you agree with that?

[Christine Cram]

We believe there probably is insufficient money, and the value of that money over time, as you suggested, is declining because costs are going up.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

That's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Ms. Karetak-Lindell.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

First of all, thank you for coming.

I have a pretty specific question, but I'm very troubled by the tone of the whole report in that “first nations and Inuit” seems to be interchangeably used throughout the whole report in areas where I don't think it's necessarily accurate.

One of the difficulties I always have in dealing with any reports is that people tend to believe “first nations” means all aboriginal people in Canada, and it doesn't. Throughout your report, you keep referring to “first nations and Inuit communities”. Then when you get specific, you say “first nations”, and that excludes Inuit.

I'm looking at page 2, where you talk about the ISSP money. I know you said Iqaluit regional office does not get any of that money, but you also said there are Inuit who have taken advantage of the Indian studies support program.

I know, for example, the Nunavut Sivuniksavut program that's here today doesn't access that money. We're trying to find out how that can be trickled so that groups such as this very successful program can actually access the support they deserve, because they don't get support from that.

As far as I know, because Nunavut does not get any through their regional office, they haven't been able to access it. I'd really like specifics on Inuit receiving money through that program, because I don't believe they do.

[Richard Budgell]

We know that Avataq Cultural Centre in northern Quebec has received ISSP money. I'm not absolutely certain about this, but I think in the past Labrador Inuit have received ISSP money also. So we know that in at least one example south of 60° that I'm certain of, Inuit organizations have received ISSP money. But the situation north of 60° has been different because of the way that post-secondary student funding has come from the territorial governments and not from the federal government. So that's something we have to look at very seriously, because this problem has been identified, and figure out a way of fixing.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We shall move on to the government side.

Mr. Albrecht, please.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to each of the witnesses for appearing today.

I want to follow up on a comment by Mr. Lemay. I think he was referring to the audit of the post-secondary student program that was done by the department audit and evaluation branch, assisted by PricewaterhouseCoopers. On page two of that report there are some troubling findings in relation to the use of the funds.

I'm going to read directly from the report. It says:

significant PSSSP funds are spent on activities that do not fall within the scope of the program, and monitoring of performance indicators could be improved.

It goes on to say:

data was found to be present in First Nations files that would permit the department to more effectively manage [those resources] if appropriate processes were to be put in place.

Then it goes on to talk about establishment of controls, compliance with controls, and program results.

And then the final paragraph on page three says:

In addition, the audit revealed a lack of enforcement of the requirement set out in the Year End Reporting Handbook that First Nations are to include detailed program schedules in their audited reports. This has a direct impact on the ability of the department to carry out adequate monitoring....

It goes on, but I don't want to take a lot of time.

I think all of us in this room, and especially the students, who are going to be the ultimate recipients of these funds, are eager to have these kinds of monitoring processes established and followed, because that helps us all in the end. So I would hope that in the near future we'd have some more adequate monitoring of things put into place.

And then, as the last sentence says, “...efforts to rectify the situation have been limited and do not appear to carry authority.” I think that's a concern for all of us as well.

That's more of a comment. My question specifically relates to the availability of funding for aboriginal students. Are all aboriginal students eligible to apply for the Canadian student loans program, as are other Canadians?

[Richard Budgell]

Yes.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I thought that was the answer.

I'd like to follow up a bit on the Nunavut Sivuniksavut program. I was one of the committee members who thoroughly enjoyed my time there and was impressed by the program there. I understand that at this point funding is not available through the ISSP program. Could you outline for us what the criteria are for institutions accessing those funds? Maybe even more simply, why wouldn't NS be eligible?

[Richard Budgell]

From what I know of the type of organization NS is and the type of program they're offering, which I learned from the transcripts of their testimony here, there is no reason why it would not be eligible, on the face of it.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

So there is a chance that if they were given the access to the application process other institutions have, they would at least be competing on a level playing field.

[Richard Budgell]

I should think so, yes.