Evidence of meeting #22 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Darren GooGoo  Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I'd like to open this meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development this Tuesday, October 31.

Committee members, we have our orders of the day in front of us. We'll be dealing with post-secondary education for the first 45 minutes, with a presentation from Mr. Darren GooGoo, and then from 9:45 to 10 o'clock we'll move on to discuss some committee business as far as the witness list for Bill C-292 is concerned, and then from 10 to 11 we'll be dealing with a motion from Madam Neville.

On behalf of the committee, I'd like to welcome, from the Membertou First Nation, Darren GooGoo, director of education.

Mr. GooGoo, we invite you to make your presentation for up to ten minutes, and then we'll be asking questions. I appreciate the fact that you've taken time to be with us this morning.

9:05 a.m.

Darren GooGoo Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, members of Parliament, I want to bring you greetings from my chief, Terrance Paul, of the Membertou First Nation.

As was explained earlier, my name is Darren GooGoo, and I'm the director of education for my community. I've been asked today to come to speak on the issue of post-secondary access and barriers to access.

My earlier understanding was that there were going to be three people at an earlier forum. One was going to speak as an individual; one was coming to speak as a member of a post-secondary institution; and I was going to come to discuss some of the barriers to post-secondary education from a community perspective, and also some of the pitfalls that we as a country need to avoid at some point in our future if we want to maintain a strong connection to post-secondary education for first nations.

With that being said, I think it's important for you to have a small understanding of the community I come from, and where we hope to go and what our aspirations are, because a lot of our aspirations hinge on having a workforce that is able to integrate into Canadian society.

I come from a small first nation know as Membertou. In the early 1900s we were a community located along the shores of the city of Sydney, on the harbour. We were on some prime real estate, and there was a petition by the local member of Parliament to have us removed from that prime location. It was successful. We fought it in the court system for ten years and were eventually removed from our original reserve of Membertou and moved to a community about two and a half kilometres away. It was basically a large swamp, and from that time, in 1926, we've been trying to re-establish ourselves as an economic force within the city of Sydney.

That being said, about ten years ago we made some changes to the way in which we do business in our community; we made some changes to the thinking about first nations governance in our community. When I joined the band nine years ago, we had a budget of approximately $5.1 million and a deficit of approximately $1 million, which anybody who's an economist here knows is just not good business, obviously. We were 25% overexpended, and we have worked long and hard over the last ten years to turn that story around. I'm happy to say that for the last number of years, Membertou has posted surpluses, and we are no longer in a position of continuing to expend more than we take in. So we've had surpluses, and our latest revenue figures show us to be a community with revenues of over $75 million and expenses of about $74.99 million. I don't want to you to get the impression that we have lots of money.

We've taken our good fortune and we've been able to reinvest it in our own strategies in our own community to make a quality of life for our people. Ten years ago the overriding principle in Membertou was that we wanted to create a community in which there was a job for every single person who wanted to work. That's a very, very ambitious idea, especially in a first nation community. Anybody who comes from aboriginal Canada will tell you there are four jobs, and three of them are already taken.

I come from a community where, when I started, there were about 50 jobs at the band office. Currently we have a workforce of about 300 people, and we currently employ, as a community, 630 people. We are one of the largest employers in the local area. The first part of our dream, the first ten years of our dream, was very simple: a job for every person who wants to work—a job for every single person who wants to work.

We've accomplished that in Membertou. But the second part of our dream is a dream that I think we share with the rest of Canada. In the next ten years we want to create enough jobs so there is quality of life; we want quality-of-life jobs at this point. We have enough people who dig ditches, we have enough people who work at cash registers, and we have enough people who do general labour. We have a lot of people who are employed in those service areas. That's what we've chosen. Those are the initial jobs we were able to create.

When we look at post-secondary education, it will be the defining criteria for first nations communities in Canada that are successful and for those that are not successful. Access to post-secondary becomes a very important issue when you look at it from the context of developing a community.

In my community alone—I read an interesting statistic—we have eleven lawyers. We also have fifteen politicians, by the way.

9:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:10 a.m.

Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Darren GooGoo

Yet we still don't have engineers, doctors, or dentists. We have some nurses, and we also have an overabundance—I don't like to say this—of teachers. I don't think that's a bad thing because I am a former high school math and science teacher. So we have an overabundance of teachers, and we continue to invest in those people...our lawyers. We continue to invest in those professional people in our community.

When we talk about the barriers to post-secondary education that exist today, we look at our community, and in the last four years we have sent an average of seventy people a year to post-secondary institutions, either universities or community colleges. We've been able to do that.

But when we talk about barriers to access, one of the biggest barriers from a community perspective—and I know you've heard this time and time again—is the issue of funding. Currently, my community receives an allocation of approximately $12,200 to send one person to a post-secondary institution. When I started my job nine years ago, the amount of money we received—and I remember this because it was the first figure I had to deal with at a meeting—was $11,726 per student for post-secondary education.

I remember meeting with the Canada student loans people eleven years ago. At that time, the cost of a university education was about $12,000 to $13,000, so we were close.

In the last nine years, since I've been a director of education in Membertou, the average university tuition cost for the community to pay for someone to go to university has been approximately $3,600. Today the cost to send one person to university is $6,300. So we have this huge $2,700 increase; the cost of living has gone up, and things have risen.

Unfortunately, our funding levels have been stabilized for the last ten years. While we're still expected to send the same number of people to university, now we have to do it with a lot fewer dollars, and we haven't been as successful as we need to be.

We had this large influx of professional people into our community. It's starting to taper off, because it's becoming more and more difficult for students to go to university and be successful. For one of the few times in our history, we have students applying for Canada students loans. I don't think that's a bad thing. I do think that as a community we need to be better attuned to making sure we give our students the tools they need to be successful.

Funding is the first issue. I think the latest report from the Canada student loans people is somewhere in the vicinity of $17,000 for one year of university. We've done a calculation in Membertou, based on how much it would cost, given the rise in tuition. We now spend more money for utilities for people. Textbooks have increased in cost in the last nine years.

When I did an independent study, it cost our community approximately $16,700 to send one person to post-secondary, and unfortunately we receive about $12,200. Anybody who does the math knows that we're about 33% underfunded on a per student basis. That makes it very difficult. It means that at this point we have to begin to pick and choose which students go to university and which students don't. I don't like to be in the position where I have to tell people how to prioritize their dreams.

That's the first issue that I'd like for you to be aware of: the funding issue.

The second issue that I think this committee should be aware of is that, as it stands right now, when we send some first nations person to university in Canada, we are as successful as any person going to university. That to me is an amazing statistic. When we talk about gaps, there is no gap in students' success at university between first nations people and the rest of Canada.

The gap is in our ability to get to university. We are not getting to university in the same numbers, we are not getting to university at the same time, and we are certainly not getting there at the same stages of our life. I think the majority of first nations students in Canada who go to university go as mature students. They're not going out of high school, because we're not finishing high school in the same numbers as the rest of Canada.

That's the second issue that we as a country need to be concerned with. How do we find solutions to get our young people through high school? How do we prepare them to become students at the post-secondary level? That's the second thing I wanted to raise.

The third thing I wanted to raise was the need for a true partnership to exist between first nations and institutions of higher learning. I'm going to give you another example quickly.

I come from a community that has a financial position that allows us to be viewed by the universities as a true partner, because we can bring more to the table than just tuition dollars. We no longer just pay the bills and that's it. We have the ability to go to the universities to say we want to buy programs.

In our community, one of the things we have done successfully—and we're doing it again right now—is sign a memorandum of understanding with a Nova Scotia community college a few years ago. When I first started my job in 1997, we had no students attending community college from our community. Last year we sent over forty. Signing that MOU with the community college and asking them to invest in our people, to invest in a first nations counsellor, to invest in different things, and to come to do some public education in our community around the need for post-secondary education has paid dividends in a very big way for our community.

We are now going through that process with the Cape Breton University and are preparing to sign an MOU with them. It's because they now view us as equal partners in this process. We've gone to them and have said, we'd like you to sign an MOU with us. So we're signing an MOU with the Cape Breton University, and part of that MOU says we want not just access to getting in the door and being successful, but we want Cape Breton University to begin to invest in our people.

Give us an opportunity to bid on contracts within the university environment and make a commitment to hire some first nations people in the institution—not just as professors, although I think that would be great, because I see myself at some point working in a university as a professor, I hope, if I can eventually get there, but also to work in the cafeteria, the secretarial pool, the gymnasium, the sports field, and to do all of those other jobs outside of the professorships in the university. I think they come to the point of saying, we'll hire some faculty. That's good; we want that. But we represent a significant percentage of Canadian society and we need to be reflected within the halls of post-secondary institutions, not just as faculty but as regular staff members.

We've asked them for a commitment on that front, and they've responded in kind and have said they're going to set some targets and work towards this in the future.

That being said, we don't want them to hire people just because they're first nation; we want them to hire people because they're good, qualified candidates. In order for that to happen, our students need to get to post-secondary education. They need to get to those doors and be successful and move through them. That's the third thing I wanted to say.

The fourth thing I wanted to talk about was the moral responsibility of Canada to ensure that first nations communities do not get left behind. I was talking to Jean earlier, and I had an opportunity in the past to listen to Dr. Janice Stein. Some of the things she talked about struck me as being pertinent to aboriginal society in Canada today. When we look over the last year, we see all of the different conflicts that have exploded around this world. If we look at the riots that occurred in France last year, or the London bombings, we see that these acts were carried out by French and British citizens who felt disenfranchised by the greater society.

I love Canada, by the way. I think it's the most wonderful country in the world to live in. We practise a form of government here. By the way, did you know that democracy is a first nations idea? Did anybody know that? Democracy was first practised in North America. But more important, it has been allowed to grow and blossom on this continent. It has happened in such a way that we now have a segment of society that believes in values—the individual freedoms, the roles and responsibilities of our citizens. When I look around the world, I keep thinking I come from a community where there are 630 jobs and only 300 people who are looking for work. We are an anomaly. We are a first nations anomaly.

I know that because I live in a community called Membertou. Thirty miles away is a sister community called Eskasoni. I love Eskasoni with all my heart. I worked ten years of my life teaching in a high school and working in a drug rehab centre. I like to tell people I spent six years in rehab. I spent ten years of my adult life working in that community. But I also know that they have a big challenge ahead of them in the next twenty years. As first nations are the fastest-growing demographic in Canada, we have the ability to solve Canada's labour woes in the future. We have the numbers. We don't need to go and look elsewhere. We need to look inside and invest in that pool of people.

The CEO for Eskasoni happens to be my first cousin, and we were talking one day about all of the challenges that this community is going to face. He says to me, “You know, the biggest challenge we're going to have twenty years from now is that we are going to have 2,000 people looking for work and they will be between the ages of twenty and forty.” I'm sitting there thinking, “Wow, man, that's a big problem.” Right now there are maybe sixty, eighty jobs in Eskasoni. How are they going to generate another 1,920 to 1,940 in the next twenty years? I said to him, “Good luck, man. I can't help you there. But I'll support you. Whatever you want to do, we'll support you as best we can. And we'll provide our experience in Membertou to help your community find some answers.”

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Mr. GooGoo, we've gone over your time significantly, and I'd like to have an opportunity for the committee members to—

9:25 a.m.

Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Darren GooGoo

I have no watch, man. I don't wear a watch, sorry!

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Do you want to summarize?

9:25 a.m.

Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Darren GooGoo

Yes. The points I want to make are: first, we need to commit to funding first nations post-secondary activities in this country; second, we need to increase the grade 12 graduates; third, we need to allow partnerships to exist between aboriginal Canada and institutions of higher learning; and fourth, we need to ensure that as a country we commit to making sure that Canadian aboriginal youth don't feel disenfranchised in this system.

I want to thank you for your time. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Committee, I'm going to turn to the second round, five minutes apiece, because we won't have time for everyone to have an opportunity to speak.

Mr. Russell, five minutes, please.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Mr. GooGoo, thank you very much.

In terms of your speed of speech, it brings me back home, being from the east coast. It's a welcome treat this morning.

I come from Labrador. I'm part of the Métis community there, but I represent the Innu and Inuit in Labrador as well.

That was a phenomenal presentation.

9:30 a.m.

Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Darren GooGoo

Thank you.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

You speak with such confidence. I would say it was almost one of those motivational-type approaches. I can see how that would spill over into your community and how even your persona can have positive influences for youth and others in our particular communities.

You say it's an anomaly. What is it about Membertou that makes it an anomaly? What would some of those characteristics be?

And I want to ask a follow-up question. Even though there's a general sense from all of our witnesses that the PSE program is federally underfunded, how instrumental has it been to have that funding in terms of achieving some of your goals? For instance, I believe you said that last year there were seventy people going into post-secondary institutions, both university and colleges, and the trades system.

I'm asking because there are many aboriginal communities and individuals around Canada who don't get enough funding. There are aboriginal communities and individuals who don't get any access to post-secondary education, such as the Métis community itself. There are some real discrepancies when you talk about Inuit communities as well.

I'm trying to get a handle on what characteristics you would say makes you an anomaly--in a good way--and number two, what we can bring to this study. As well, how fundamental has the PSE program been, maybe in partnership with other types of fundings or institutions or whatever, in terms of achieving some of your goals?

I'm trying to get at a value issue. It's not just about money. It's about how it fits into your community development plans. I'm trying to not only look for more funding--and this is my bias, but I'll certainly bring it to this committee--but also to expand the program to other aboriginal peoples as well.

I just want to get a sense of that from you.

9:30 a.m.

Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Darren GooGoo

In answer to your first question about how we are an anomaly, we're able to invest. We have other source revenues in our community. Some of them come from gaming. Some of them come from corporate activities. We have a geomatics company, which employs four people, that has generated profits in the hundreds of thousands of dollars every year for our community. That is money that is reinvested into social programming in our community.

Some years, we put an extra $100,000 into post-secondary education; some years, $200,000. I know one particular year it cost us $410,000 over and above the funding we received from INAC. We as a community have made a decision that post-secondary education is of utmost importance.

The next part of our challenge, in the next ten years, is no longer about a job for everyone; it's a quality-of-life job for everyone. For a lot of people, that means having access to post-secondary education.

If I understand you correctly, that's one of the things you're looking for. It's about communities making that a priority. I think most communities in Canada would make it the top priority within their community if they had the funding.

With respect to the issue I gave you about Eskasoni, it has funding for approximately eighty students per year. Routinely, they get applications of 120 to 150. They have to turn away forty to seventy students per year. That's a difficult situation for that community.

I'm lucky. I'm in a community where every single student who applies for post-secondary education is going to be funded. If it means that we as a community dig into our own coffers to make that a reality, we know as a community that this is a worthwhile investment.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

I have a follow-up question.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Very quickly, Mr. Russell.

9:30 a.m.

Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Darren GooGoo

We are seeing more success. Last year we graduated fourteen out of sixteen high school students. This year we have seventeen potential graduates, and we expect to graduate all seventeen, but I think we'll be happy with fifteen of them graduating.

We have high expectations for our students. We also support them. We support them at the high school level. We get $42,000 a year for secondary school support for students, and our budget in our community for supporting students in the secondary system is $130,000. We invest our own money to make sure they graduate from high school.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

So PSE is fundamental.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I have to interrupt, because we're out of time, Mr. Russell.

One of the things that most studies have said about successful first nations communities is their leadership. If they have the right leadership in place, they move; it doesn't matter what the economic conditions are. Leadership is a key component.

9:30 a.m.

Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Darren GooGoo

May I just quickly address that, because that's important?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I saw your expression. You'll be cutting into Mr. Lemay's time, but....

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

No, no, put it on my time.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Okay.

9:30 a.m.

Director of Education, Membertou First Nation

Darren GooGoo

It's important for citizens within communities to have confidence in the people they elect to do the job they elect them to do. Growing up, in my life, I didn't believe I'd ever work for our community. I come from one of the smallest families in my community, and for a long time I saw jobs going to people in our community based not on merit, but on other reasons in our community. When we hired our CEO, when we started making all these changes and hiring people in our community based on merit, I then had the confidence to say I could go to work in my community.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

Mr. Lemay.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

You speak very fast.