Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 12th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We'll begin the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development meeting of Tuesday, December 12, 2006.

Committee members, you have the orders of the day before you. The first hour will be a consideration of circumstances faced by the Pikangikum First Nation.

I want to advise committee members that due to weather conditions, Chief Charlie Pascal of the Pikangikum First Nation was not able to attend. He wasn't able to fly from Pikangikum.

Professor Joseph Magnet is here. He and Charlene Desrochers had an opportunity to speak to Chief Pascal. Charlene was briefed on the issues by the chief and has been given authority to make a presentation to this committee.

I'm only looking for direction from the committee to make sure everyone is in agreement with Ms. Desrochers making this submission to the committee. I don't hear any nays, so that's what we'll do.

Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I would like to know what is the role of Charlene Desrochers? What position does she hold? What is her job?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

The question that was asked is what capacity does Mrs. Desrochers have with the Pikangikum First Nation or what is her title.

[Charlene Desrochers, Member, Constance Lake First Nation, Pikangikum First Nation]

I was given permission last night by Chief Charles Pascal, the elders, and the councillors to speak on their behalf. They felt it was important to have their message relayed to you, and they requested that I speak on their behalf.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I guess Mr. Lévesque is looking for the connection you have to the Pikangikum First Nation. Are you a member of that first nation?

[Charlene Desrochers]

I'm not a member of the Pikangikum First Nation, but I am a first nations woman. I'm a member of the Constance Lake First Nation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

I'd like to proceed by having up to 45 minutes for presentations and questions, and we'll then go in camera for 15 minutes. I'll look for some direction from the committee in regard to this issue, and we'll then move on to our PSE report.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Chair, why would you need direction?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I only wanted to make sure that committee members don't have a problem with the presentation.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

We don't have a problem with it.

[Charlene Desrochers]

Thank you.

Good morning, everyone. I would like to thank you for your time and attention to the critical situation in Pikangikum. I am bringing greetings from Chief Charles Pascal and the councillors, elders, and community of Pikangikum.

Chief Pascal booked a flight to Ottawa and was very much looking forward to discussing the issues with you, but typical of Canadian weather, he was unable to fly out of the community due to freezing rain. It was very important to the people of Pikangikum that you receive their message. As such, the councillors and elders deputized me to speak to you on their behalf.

My name is Charlene Desrochers. I'm a first nations woman and I'm a member of Constance Lake First Nation in northern Ontario. The message I'm bringing to you today is that Pikangikum is a strong, traditional community. The people are Ojibway-speaking and their culture is very strong. In fact, Pikangikum is one of the few communities where the majority of the people retain their Ojibway language. There are 2,200 people living there, including 600 babies.

Officials from the Province of Ontario regard Pikangikum as one of the most capable of first nations in the area. They have made amazing economic progress developing the Whitefeather Forest in partnership with the provincial government. While Pikangikum is extremely capable, with many innovative accomplishments behind it, it is being held back by its infrastructure. This infrastructure is, quite frankly, a scandal that should not be occurring in our rich, capable country.

Pikangikum was visited by an independent public health unit with four highly respected doctors on two occasions. These doctors reported that the conditions in Pikangikum are shocking and pose a serious public health risk to the community. A public health crisis is unfolding at Pikangikum. These independent doctors reported a high incidence of disease caused by the neglect of the community's infrastructure. The homes have no running water or toilets. Sixteen people crowd into one small room without any water or bathroom facilities. Mothers have to walk two miles to get water to wash their babies, and walk two miles back with the bucket of water. This happens in the winter, as well.

There are 2,200 people being made sick; 600 babies are being made sick. That's 2,200 Pikangikum first nations people who are being made sick by the neglect of their infrastructure. This is what the independent report stated, which has now been brought to your attention by the Minister of Indian Affairs.

The Minister of Indian Affairs has asked you to visit Pikangikum so that you can see first-hand what the living conditions are like. This problem has been put in your hands. The health and safety of 2,200 Canadians--that's 2,200 first nations people--is in your hands. The health and safety of 600 babies is in your hands.

On behalf of the chief and council, elders, and people of Pikangikum, I'm asking you to go to their community. Just as the minister has asked you, I'm asking you to visit Pikangikum to see what the problems are and make recommendations. You have an important responsibility. Pikangikum's people will welcome you and assist you in carrying out your responsibilities. The people are anxious for you to come. The people look forward to treating you with Pikangikum hospitality and providing you with every resource to ensure that your observations are accurate and that you produce a quality report.

Pikangikum is accessible by air. You would fly into Winnipeg and then into Pikangikum by Wasaya Airways. It's a safe and stable community, with that stability provided by their strong culture and traditions.

Again, thank you for inviting me to appear before this committee on behalf of the Pikangikum First Nation.

With me is Professor Joseph Magnet. Chief Pascal has already written to you that he is a trusted, long-term adviser to Pikangikum First Nation, and he is pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Mr. Magnet, would you like to say anything further?

[Joseph Magnet, Law Professor, University of Ottawa]

I'd be very happy to answer your questions, but if I might just remind everybody why this committee is assembled on this topic, it's because the minister wrote a letter to the committee marked “urgent” and asked the committee to carry out an immediate investigation into the circumstances at Pikangikum. The minister also asked the committee to meet in the community with representatives of Pikangikum as soon as possible and report back to him.

The occasion of the minister's letter was that a report had been prepared by the Northwestern Health Unit. I think the report is being translated and should be before you soon, if it's not already.

This is an independent report by doctors and public health professionals who travelled to Pikangikum on different occasions. They reported back as to the conditions they found, and in the report you will see that there was a high incidence of gastrointestinal, skin, urinary tract, eye, and ear infections, and lice infestations. The doctors reported that these were caused by neglect of the community's infrastructure—its water and sewer systems.

The doctors reported back—these are very experienced people who have been to reserves throughout northern Ontario, including Kashechewan—that the conditions witnessed at Pikangikum were the worst they had seen in the region, that health damage had already occurred, and that there was a high risk of more damage.

That's why we're here, because the minister asked you to look into this. With great interest, I read the public session of this committee in which officials from the Department of Indian Affairs appeared before you. I also read Mr. Howsam's remarks with great interest, where he said that things are very difficult, that it's very complicated, and that there are many reasons.

Mr. Valley asked him when the water would be fixed, and Mr. Howsam provided you no answer, no date—not 2010, 2012.... It's all very complicated; it's a big problem.

I think the committee has to ask itself if this is a satisfactory answer. This community faced some challenges 12 years ago, in 1995, and it was placed in co-management. It then made fantastic progress. It had a deficit of some million dollars. It cut all of the salaries—these are not people of great means—and it paid back the million dollars. It made terrific progress over that period.

The community had plans for a school, which it had worked up. The community had contracted for a road, and with its own funds built a road to the community—without the department's help. It worked up the big bureaucratic structure to produce the appropriate water and sewer plant by itself—without the department's help. This was bid, and the bids came in under what was in the capital plan.

Then the community was placed in third-party management in 2001, in circumstances the Federal Court called “patently unreasonable”, and which the Auditor General criticized. During the period it was in third-party management—some four years—all of these projects stopped. The department had complete control of the projects, but no progress was made. When the first nation had control, all of the projects were worked. When the department had control, nothing happened. Things stopped, and the result of it was this public health crisis, which is now before you.

I think you have to ask yourselves if it is true that it's just all very complicated and difficult, and everybody at Pikangikum is to blame, as Mr. Howsam is telling you, or is there something else going on? And is this something else perhaps typical of the responsibilities that engage this community day to day?

The minister has asked you to go to Pikangikum to carry out an immediate investigation, to go as soon as possible, and his letter is marked “urgent”.

Mr. Roger is bringing you an invitation from the chief, the council, and the elders asking you to come. The Pikangikum First Nation people, the 2,200 people, support what the minister has done. They think it's a good idea. They think you should travel there and see first-hand, with your own eyes.

The minister has asked you to hold hearings and investigations. The people of Pikangikum think that's a good idea. They support what the minister has done. They think that's a good way to deal with it, so that you can see with your own eyes what is going on there in this unfolding public health crisis that is putting the lives of babies and 2,200 people at risk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I just want to make sure you understand that the role of this committee is not necessarily to set policy and to study these issues, and it's not to interfere with the service delivery of the department. Even so, we're concerned about it and recognize the need. You have to recognize that if this committee were to start doing that, we would be at every community in Canada that has a need, and that is something that is concerning me as the chair, because there are a lot of needs out there. Where do we stop, and is that the mandate of our committee?

We are responding to a letter written by the minister because of his concern and he was looking for counsel. I'm leaving it to the committee to make the decision on whether they want to get involved, because there is the risk that if we open this door because we are very compassionate people and really want to see some changes and help the Pikangikum First Nation, then you have remember that we open the door for everyone. I'm not directing the committee, but that is the challenge that is before us.

I'm going to start with Mr. Lemay, please.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I see that the witnesses mention a report. I would like that report to be tabled before the committee so that we can look at it. We have been hearing about a report for at least three meetings, and I would like to have it so that we can at least examine it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

First of all, Mr. Lemay, you are correct. I just heard of that report from Mr. Magnet late last week. I have asked the department whether they have that report and I haven't had any word back from the department. I think it's important—

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Mr. Chair, I tabled it last week. That was the document I tabled with the clerk on Wednesday.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Sorry, Mr. Valley. I can't recall it.

Does anybody else...?

[A voice]

Yes, I have it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Bruinooge.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

We might have one too many Liberals at the microphone.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Mr. Chair, in fairness, the report may have been tabled, but if my recollection is correct, it was indicated that it was a provincial report. I thought you questioned whether it would be valuable for this committee to have it or not.

I'd love to have it. I agree with Mr. Lemay. We need to have that in front of us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Is it the consensus that we get this report out?

I instruct the clerk to please have it translated and to make it available to each committee member.

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Mr. Merasty.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I welcome our guests who are here this morning to talk about this issue.

From my past life as a chief, dealing in my tribal council with communities in similar situations, I know that these are tough to deal with. The dire situation the community finds itself in is great, as is the willingness to act to resolve this. I think the driving force here is to act quickly.

The report we just spoke about highlights the circumstances of the community. You went through a whole bunch of health issues--for example, having to walk four miles for water, the children being sick, the community members being sick--that I know are factual. I believe it 110%. I can see that in this community and I've seen it in other communities as well.

The outcome of the report, the recommendation, is to act immediately, to deal with this now. That's what I'm hearing now and that's what I've heard for the last little while. That action requires infrastructure to be built so that we can finish the water and sewer, finish the hydro line, and finish all the different things that need to get done. On top of that, we need to improve the social service package, the safety net provisions within that community for all community members.

The community wants action, as I mentioned, and I think this committee wants to see action as well. This was represented to the minister. His attention was brought to this issue by the community, to please act now. I keep stressing that point because that's the key: please act now.

The minister then wrote us a letter asking us to go. But from my experience dealing with committees--as a member of a committee and then as a chief, being on the receiving end of a committee visit--my concern is that we can go there but we can't do anything. We can't force the minister to act. We can tell him to act, but he may not. And we need action. If we go up there and they wait for us to do a report....

My concern is that winter roads are tough to build nowadays, with global warming occurring. In some of my northern communities, we're lucky to have winter roads for two weeks. As a committee we'd be glad to go, if the community wants us there and is inviting us there, but I'm worried that we may not cause action. Only the minister can initiate action. He can initiate that yesterday, if you know what I mean. We need the minister to say that we have to get ready for the winter roads so that we can haul the construction material in, so let's tender it and do all these things; the construction season is short.

My concern, then, speaking not as a committee member but as a person who has lived on a reserve for virtually all of my life and who knows the situations faced by a remote community, is that if the minister doesn't make the decision tomorrow to move forward with the infrastructure, to move forward with the social safety net improvements that need to happen, then they may not happen in time. They may not happen quickly enough.

I don't want this committee to be used as an excuse to tie up more time. I can feel the dire situation of the community members. The minister has the executive authority to make the decision to act. This committee doesn't, and that's my concern.

I think you'll find that the committee is interested in going as long as the community is inviting them--that will be debated among the community--but we cannot compel the minister to act. The minister has this report and the minister knows the situation. Everybody's talking around the chief and council and around the community, but nobody's talking directly to the community, and that's what needs to happen. In my humble opinion, the minister has to make that direct contact and make that direct commitment to act to begin to resolve these issues.

I'd hate for the community to have to depend on this committee, which can't compel the minister to act. We can write a report, make observations, but there is no guarantee he'll act. I think they want to.

I think the biggest thing is that we need the minister to commit to addressing these. So I'm wondering if you understand my perspective and whether you agree with maybe getting the minister to act immediately in addressing these.

[Joe Magnet]

Mr. Merasty, those are very thoughtful comments, which are appreciated.

It's very interesting living in a democracy. Power is spread all over the place and we each have our roles in the democracy. The committee has a role and you quite properly point out that its role here is investigatory and advisory, and it's an extremely important function to write a report. Especially when the committee travels, everybody is interested in what it does and what it has to say, so the committee's report does gather a certain amount of strength all by itself.

The minister works through the department and the minister can't himself pick up the knife and make the incision. He works through the department. And the department came forward and said before you that it's very complicated. There are “issues of maintenance”, Mr. Howsam said. He said, “There's nothing straightforward here. It's all very complex and very challenging.”

So that's what the minister is hearing from his officials.