Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[Harry Tulugak]

I shall do that with great difficulty. Thank you, sir.

May I then skim through my papers?

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Do what you will, yes. If there are parts of it that you feel you can skip over, I would appreciate that, because at this pace it's going to take 25 minutes to read it.

[Harry Tulugak]

As an aboriginal people within the meaning of subsection 91(24), Inuit were offered the opportunity to have their lands and institutions come under federal jurisdiction. However, it soon became obvious to the Inuit negotiators that this arrangement would be based on the Indian Act and that Inuit institutions would only have authority over relatively small pockets of land. This seemed like an absurdity, given that Inuit were the overwhelming majority in the vast territory. As an alternative, Quebec was offering a non-ethnic model that would make use of public institutions that would have jurisdiction over almost all the territory north of the 55th.

To the surprise of the federal and provincial governments, we opted for the public model. While it has the advantage of providing Inuit with institutions that have powers over large territory, there have been debates over some of the risks associated with this model, because public institutions are open to the participation of all permanent residents. Inuit could end up losing control over the various institutions they negotiated if they became a minority within their territory.

In the course of the negotiations, Inuit focused on the creation of public institutions such as the Kativik School Board, the Kativik Regional Government, and the Kativik Health and Social Services Council. Inuit negotiators had intended to regroup all these institutions under one government headed by an elected assembly. Within a few years of the signing of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, there were calls for renewed efforts to bring the territory's regional institutions under one roof.

There were a number of aborted attempts in the eighties to bring these institutions closer together, but they lacked the political momentum necessary to take root. In order to kick-start the negotiations, Makivik and the governments of Quebec and Canada agreed to establish the Nunavik Commission, which I co-chaired. After extensive consultations with Nunavik and neighbouring aboriginal communities, this commission released its report with a series of far-reaching recommendations for the creation of a Nunavik government with extensive powers.

Conceptually, what we are setting out to do in the agreement in principle is quite simple. The boards and councils of the Kativik Regional Government, the school board, and the Nunavik regional health board will be replaced with one elected assembly. In addition, certain administrative functions that are common to all three organizations, such as purchasing and accounting services, will be centralized under a Nunavik government.

With the adoption of the Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act, Canada fulfilled a commitment flowing from the Northeastern Quebec Agreement to give effect to self-government legislation for the Naskapi.

Self-government of Naskapi lands and institutions comes under federal jurisdiction. This is essentially the self-government arrangement that was offered to and rejected by the Inuit when they were negotiating the James Bay And Northern Quebec Agreement in the early 1970s.

I recall having had discussions about these many issues with the Naskapi representatives in the presence of federal and provincial officials in the early 1990s as a member of the Nunavik Commission. I also remember that the Naskapi made an extensive presentation at one of our hearings. The Naskapi did indicate they would consider the invitations, which were given, only after the parties of the negotiations appointed emissaries to travel to Kawawachikamach.

Together, Makivik, Canada, and Quebec appointed what we called an eminent persons group to listen to the views of the Naskapi. Later, in order to facilitate discussions and draft up what is essentially section 6.5 of our agreement in principle, it was forwarded to the Naskapi. This was followed by a meeting in Kawawachikamach between negotiators and the Naskapi leadership on May 5, 2005. It was agreed that a four-party committee would be set up to follow up on issues being raised by the Naskapi.

The first meeting of the committee took place in Montreal in July 2005, at which the Naskapi said they would not be ready to engage in a formal discussion on substance before the federal government officially responded to a list of questions they were putting forward.

Since then, there have been a series of exchange of letters on a variety of matters between the different negotiating parties and the Naskapi, in an effort to move the discussions forward.

I'm a bit thrown off, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Just go through your list. I think you need to go through your list.

[Harry Tulugak]

I apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

No, that's fine.

[Harry Tulugak]

I will now summarize those provisions of the agreement in principle that directly relate to the Naskapi.

First, the territory over which the Nunavik Regional Government would have jurisdiction north of the 55th is defined as not including category 1B-N lands of the Naskapi.

Second, section 3.1.13 of the agreement in principle makes it clear that nothing in agreements to establish a Nunavik government “shall affect, modify or prejudice, and shall not be interpreted as affecting, modifying or prejudicing the rights, privileges and benefits of the Naskapi under the JBNQA and the NEQA or under any other agreement or undertaking to which the government of Québec or Canada is a party”.

Third, under the agreement in principle, the Naskapi would retain their representation in Nunavik, with a seat at the Nunavik Assembly.

Finally, in section 6.1, the bilateral committee would be established as part of a Nunavik government to address specific issues relating to the Naskapi. The bilateral committee would be composed of three members appointed by the Nunavik Regional Government, three members appointed by the Naskapi Nation of Kawawachikamach, and a chairperson appointed by Quebec who would be acceptable to both the Nunavik Regional Government and the Naskapi Nation of Kawawachikamach. The agreement in principle foresees a joint working group of the Naskapi to finalize section 6.5 and to fully identify the mandate of the bilateral committee.

I also want to emphasize that provisions of section 6.5 go beyond the status quo in terms of the current obligations of the Kativik Regional Government in dealing with Naskapi issues in Nunavik.

In closing, I'd like to stress the following points.

First, it is important to remember that Nunavik Inuit have opted for public government or, for lack of a better word, a non-ethnic government. This means that all of our municipalities and regional institutions are open to the participation of all residents, Inuit and non-Inuit alike. Unlike many other aboriginal peoples, our governance model is not based on aboriginal institutions, which are controlled exclusively by Inuit, but it also means jurisdiction of our institutions is not limited to Inuit-controlled lands.

Second, in examining our AIP, it is important not to lose sight of the fact that it attempts to create a Nunavik government through amalgamation of what already exists. Except for what is required to merge the boards and the councils, and certain administrative functions of the existing organizations, our initiative does not attempt to make any changes to the powers or jurisdictions of what already exists in Nunavik.

Third, we have always acknowledged that the Naskapi have rights north of the 55th parallel, and that there is a need to enter into a dialogue with them about the creation of a Nunavik government. Although it has taken some time to arrive at the necessary quorum to facilitate such discussions, we believe that an exchange of letters that is currently under way will allow for a four-party meeting early in the near year, involving the Naskapi, Makivik, Quebec, and Canada.

Fourth, above all else, it is important to recognize that negotiations for the creation of a Nunavik government are taking place because Inuit have opted for public government as a means for exercising their self-government rights within Quebec and Canada. Although we opted for a public model, Inuit have confidence that the Nunavik government will provide us with a unified body that allows us to come together to govern our affairs, set our priorities, and determine our future. In this sense, it is a continuation of the work Inuit began 35 years ago with the negotiation of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement.

Thank you for your kind understanding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

I appreciate that you were trying to plow through this.

For the committee, it's not typically the case, but we will try to get this translated and circulated to committee members, because at the end of the presentation the points were made, but you had to skip over some of the context at the front end. So committee members may welcome that.

We will have one round of questions, seven minutes each. I ask for the cooperation of my colleagues not to ask long or complicated questions after I give the one-minute warning.

Mr. Russell.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Tulugak, thank you very much for appearing. That was quite a presentation, with much information in there.

I appreciate the aspirations of your people for greater self-government powers, as I do appreciate the aspirations of the Naskapi and all aboriginal peoples for greater self-government powers.

With the governmental structures you have in place now in Nunavik, is there any power or jurisdiction over the Naskapi people in the territory they claim or the territory that's under the Northeastern Quebec Agreement?

[Harry Tulugak]

To my knowledge, the existing structure allows for the participation of the Naskapi where Chief Einish participates as a voting member of the 14- or 15-member council that is elected every two years. We have had relationships with the Naskapi in that context, and we know of no other structure accorded to us outside of the James Bay and Northern Quebec agreement and the Northeastern Quebec Agreement whereby we may have any other form of relations, other than a lot of very strong familial connections.

I have a neighbour living in my home community now of Puvirntuq who is of Naskapi descent. He speaks Inuktitut and has married into my family. So we have these strong familial connections, and this is how we have been working together for these many years.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

As the situation currently exists, the regional government structures in Nunavik exercise some governmental powers that relate to or affect the Naskapi. So when we amalgamate there will still be a certain element of jurisdiction or governance over the Naskapis under this public government. I think that's basically understood.

If you're moving to a public government system and the Naskapi haven't been at the table for 17 years, according to their presentation, who represented Naskapi interests in moving to this new model? If this new government will have certain implications for their lives, who represented the Naskapi at the negotiating table? They say they want to represent themselves, which is understandable, but did anybody represent them or claim to represent the Naskapi at the negotiating table?

[Harry Tulugak]

No. I'd like to make a slight clarification on what governmental relations there are. The only governmental arrangement right now recognized under the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement is the Kativik Regional Government. It has supramunicipal authority. It has ordinance-making authority. It includes what was agreed upon in the James Bay and Northern Quebec agreement in 1975, and that includes the Naskapi through the Northeastern Quebec Agreement. That is the only form of government we have at the present time in the region of Nunavik.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

When we look at a new governance model, we don't just want status quo in governmental powers or governance powers--and I have great interest in this from a Labrador perspective. When you move to this new form of regional government, public government per se, isn't it contemplated that you want expanded powers at some point--that is the goal--not the same powers that were negotiated under the James Bay-Quebec agreement or the Northeastern Quebec agreement?

[Harry Tulugak]

At this time we are in an agreed-upon phase, which is phase one, to regroup all these public bodies under one roof, which is not the case right now. The understanding among the people around the tripartite table is that there will be a second phase, way in the future, on the notion of new powers. Phase one includes restructuring and putting all these public bodies under one umbrella, one assembly, which is not the case right now.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Liberal or Conservative, I don't really give a rat's whatever, but I do believe that the federal government has a fiduciary obligation to protect aboriginal people and to include them where possible. They shouldn't be left off the hook with that.

Has Makivik ever been opposed to the Naskapi having a seat at these tables?

[Harry Tulugak]

Never. Our history has been that we've invited them. I've been there for many years with Mr. McGoldrick, in the same room with Naskapi and federal representatives. We always tried to find ways to accommodate their concerns within the existing circumstances and the existing legal and treaty organizations. The door is always open. That's why we have a section 6.5 in our agreement in principle. We're always trying to accommodate their certain situations related to the Naskapi issues. The door is always open.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you very much, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Good afternoon, Harry. I have here a map showing the Naskapi land claims. I don't know if you have one as well.

Are you challenging any of the Naskapi claims? More specifically, have the Inuit ever occupied the land in the way the Naskapi claim to have occupied it? Have you in fact ever occupied the land in question in this manner?

[Harry Tulugak]

Mr. Wilkinson made the statement at the outset about 5,000 years of history. The Naskapi he represents and the people I come from both have very strong oral histories. One of the oral histories that I know of says that when my people were caribou hunting they thought they saw Inuit, but they were in fact trees. They had never seen trees before in their hunting expeditions, and they had gone very far south to the tree line--and vice versa. It has always been traditionally shared territory because there was absolutely no notion of boundaries between the Naskapi nation, the Cree Indians, and the Inuit. It was always about survival. We never had these boundary disputes. They didn't exist until 1975.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Please understand me when I say that I am extremely pleased with the initiative that has been undertaken to date and with the agreement in principle reached with the regional government. I am happy that you have this authority. I only have one question. There are 13 villages in all that are exclusively Inuit, as well as the village known as Whapmagoostui-Kuujjuarapik that is populated by Inuit and Cree and a 15th village on this land by the name of Kawawachikamach. The latter is part of the electoral district of Nunavik.

If we exclude the Naskapi territory which is currently occupied by only 1,000 Naskapi or so, what authority would this take away from the regional government of Nunavik?

[Michael McGoldrick, Policy Advisor and Political Advisor to the President, Makivik Corporation]

The Naskapi community actually is just outside of Nunavik. It's just south of the 55th parallel. Their traditional lands are clearly north, in Nunavik, but the community itself isn't part of Nunavik.

The question about the territorial claims, I think, is one that's critical to hear, because it's been addressed by the land claim agreements. When you talk about the use of lands and the application of laws, the Naskapi have particular hunting, fishing, and trapping rights. There are lines on maps indicating what their rights are and how their rights have to be respected.

What we're talking about here aren't land claims; we're talking about governance. When the NQIA, the Inuit negotiator, sat down to negotiate the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement and it came to governance, they opted for public government, which came under Quebec jurisdiction. The Naskapi said no. They had an option and they went for having their lands strictly under the control of the Naskapi, not public government, and for their institutions to come under federal jurisdiction.

There are two different concepts. One is a broader public concept where the territorial reach of their jurisdiction is not limited to lands reserved for the aboriginal people in question. All of the Inuit communities are public. The minute there is a influx of people for mining, or whatever, they could lose control of their institutions. On the other hand, since they are public institutions, the territorial reach of their jurisdiction goes beyond what would be considered category 1A lands. And these are implemented by Quebec. It's the only area where the Inuit are aboriginal people under subsection 91(24) of the Constitution, but these laws are put in place by the Quebec National Assembly because they're laws of general application; they apply to all of the people of the territory. So the school board, the health board, the Kativik municipal government, or supramunicipal government, were all put in place as broad public institutions. And the only exercise under way today is simply to amalgamate the existing organizations.

It's somewhat radical, because you don't have in any province or a territory an institution that somewhat mirrors what the province does. But this doesn't add to anything; it is simply taking what already exists. And the territory, the Kativik Regional Government, the Kativik school board, the health board, etc., have jurisdiction over the area north of the 55th parallel—

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

You have one minute.

[Michael McGoldrick]

—and we're amalgamating that into one institution.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

You have seen the proposal that Minister Pelletier has made to the Naskapi Nation. The goal is to ensure that the Naskapi have a seat at the table when discussions take place further to the agreement in principle. In the meantime, if I understand correctly, the agreement calls on the two parties to sit down and negotiate as nations. I do not think it is up to us to resolve disputes between two nations. I think it must be left to the two nations to define their respective territories. That's all the Naskapi are asking of us today. They are asking the federal government to adopt the same position as the Quebec government, that is to ensure the Naskapi have a seat at the negotiating table.