Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 28th, 2009

[Martin Egan]

--and that's something totally different. However, the difference could be on how that reserve is actually set aside, whether it's surface only or whether it includes minerals. There may be some residual mineral interests that the province would retain. That mineral aspect might be the only major difference if you added 100 acres to an existing reserve.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So you're going to get back to us with details?

[Martin Egan]

Yes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I appreciate the changes you're making as a result of the Auditor General's report. What do you think the actual results will be of those changes? What will change in the bottom line? What progress will be made? What do you think will happen?

[Sara Filbee]

I think the challenge we have in answering that question is that there are a lot of moving parts that haven't stopped yet. For example, we're embarking on consultations with the Assembly of First Nations with respect to legislation and so on that could significantly help the process. We aren't there yet. We don't know what the answer is. We could give you a range, but it would be a complete guesstimate at this point.

What we've been trying to do is look at the problem from a number of different perspectives and to ask from each perspective, how can we make that go faster and how can we reduce the obstacles, the barriers, and so on? We don't really have a sense; all we know is that we're trying to reduce it as much as possible.

It's difficult to give you any sort of precise estimate. I apologize for that.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Here's my last question. In your last response, you talked about consultation. As you know, a year or two ago the department, not only for this file but for all files, as a result of certain court cases that demanded consultation, decided to draft a policy on consultation, a framework for consultation. Could you tell us the status of that framework for consultation?

[Sara Filbee]

We'll get you a formal update on that. I know there has been a lot of work done on it and there have been discussions across the federal government in terms of how we want to proceed, but we'll get you a formal update in terms of the actual stage of development.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

I'm going to take one of the government spots briefly, if I may, and then I know we have some other questions.

We'll get your names on the list. We'll get to you, Mr. Bélanger, et Monsieur Lévesque aussi, et Madame Crowder, absolument. We'll have another round. We'll finish this one up and then we'll have a short round. We'll get everybody's questions in. There is plenty of time.

There were a couple of items raised this morning that perhaps are a little outside the purview of the report that you came prepared to discuss today. We appreciate your being able to take the time to get back to us, particularly on these questions.

To Mr. Bagnell's point about the rights that exist in current treaties and, when there is an addition to reserve, the extent to which those existing rights are then automatically...or is it presumed that they transfer to those new lands? Perhaps you could comment on that question.

[Martin Egan]

The reserve has a package of rights attached to it, and whether it is an old reserve that has existed for a while or a new reserve, in general those rights are the same.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

What would be the exceptions?

[Martin Egan]

The subsurface rights may be different, particularly in situations where there are only surface area reserves, so the rights to the minerals below have been retained and have not come with the reserve. But also, there are differences among the provinces on how the subsurface is affected by reserve development. It's actually quite complicated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I want to go to the issue of the database. I know that the Auditor General's report was quite critical not so much of the progress that's been made, which was in fact quite satisfactory, but it was addressing some of the management practices, that if there wasn't some urgency there, it would be difficult for the department to sustain the kind of progress you've experienced in the last three years.

You've talked about the database, but are there other measures that currently are very much urgent for you in terms of addressing those management practices--aside from the database, which, agreed, is a right step? What specific issues on management practices are you addressing on an urgent basis?

[Martin Egan]

We do have an action plan that is currently going through a departmental approvals process. There are a number of different items on this plan. We've already talked about a lot of them.

Each file is being looked at and reviewed in terms of determining where we are in the process and what the next steps are to move it along. We're developing the template documents, trying to address some of the situations with, for instance, Manitoba first nations and trying to get such issues as easements with hydro resolved.

We're also looking at standing offer arrangements for survey work. We're trying to line up our surveying teams in a more timely fashion. We especially recognize that the work is very weather dependent. You have only a short window in which to do some of that work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Would it be fair to say that you're looking at these on an individual, case-by-case basis, and where there are gaps, you're just gradually trying to close those gaps and move each file along?

[Martin Egan]

We're trying to bundle them into issues. These, for instance, have the easement issue, and they're being held up because of this, so we need to focus on it and get it addressed. Those, though, have surveying requirements, which maybe can be dovetailed, that type of thing. So we're looking at each individual file, trying to pull out the common elements and then trying to deal with those common elements.

[Sara Filbee]

In the office of one of my staff, there is a pictorial representation of the entire process. It literally goes from ceiling to floor and is dense. I mean, there's just so much that has to happen, with so many different stages and so on. It really is a business process re-engineering project that we're doing in bits and pieces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Very good. That's all I had.

We'll go back to Monsieur Lemay.

You have five minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

If a community has land claims, do you intervene? If so, how?

[Paul Fauteux]

No. We only intervene once the claim is settled with respect to the implementation of the settlement agreement, which typically provides for the addition of lands to the reserves.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

When there is a reserve land, you intervene to take measures so that... For example, in Pikogan, which is an aboriginal community near Amos, in my riding, 92 acres of land were added. You go so far as to use an order and, afterwards, that's no longer your responsibility. Is that correct?

[Paul Fauteux]

After the order, it's no longer the addition to reserve process. We go on to the continuing reserve land management phase. We go into another field than the one that is the subject of the Auditor General's report, but that's still part of lands management and of the responsibilities of Ms. Filbee's sector.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

If for one reason or another an aboriginal community decides to buy neighbouring lands with its own money, is it easier to include them in reserve lands or do you have to go through the same process as the one you're using?

[Paul Fauteux]

It's the same process, regardless of the origin of the lands, whether they're bought in the private market, party-to-party, or they are lands transferred from the provincial Crown, as the Quebec government said that it was prepared to do in the case of Kitcisakik.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

My last question concerns the registry. I'd like to have a better understanding of what that is. My impression is that you're going to create a reserve lands registry or—