Evidence of meeting #16 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Director General, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's a fee-for-service negotiation basically, so the private industry would be a price-taker. The municipality has services, and they have rates, and they'll bill for the services through taxes.
In this case it's a bit different, because the service is going to be provided, as you say, to another level of government, and it may take a while before they agree on both the breadth of services that the first nation wants to purchase from the municipality and the price at which—
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Do you run into political barriers at all if the first nation, or some first nations, are interested in putting a specific kind of building on that tract of land? Normally it could be an administrative building for health or education or the like. Prince Albert is a great example of that. But what if it was a health centre, for example? Do you think there are any issues that arise there with the municipal government, maybe even the provincial government?
9:35 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We are aware that there are typically discussions about bylaw compatibility and things of that nature, so those have been, on occasion, difficult discussions.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
These questions really are alive and well in Sioux Lookout, in my riding. As is the case for some of the other folks here, many of our reserves, including my 25, are not connected by road, and so they use Sioux Lookout as a city centre.
We're doing some work, at all levels of government, looking at the feasibility of an urban reserve in Sioux Lookout. Certainly there's a need for it. I think it has to be strategically developed and not at odds with some of the municipal economic development opportunity and businesses, quite frankly, that are there.
How do you see the difficulties of isolated communities getting access--maybe a collective group of them, let's say--in this process, if they were wanting to make an application for a small urban tract of land in a town or city like Sioux Lookout, or what have you?
9:35 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
What would be the first step in doing that?
9:35 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I think probably one of the first steps is to establish a relationship with the municipal government and try to get those folks to be part of the planning process, rather than trying to stop it. It has happened before that the municipal government hasn't been supportive. But if you can get that support, that is very helpful.
Then there's the question of where the land is going to be and why it is going to be reserve. The additions to reserves policy has a number of justifications in it, and if a first nation has a legal obligation—for instance, if there's a specific claim settlement or something like that, where there's land promised to that first nation--then the reserve could be created using that legal obligation and could be set aside. We don't usually do it, but it can be done for more than one first nation.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
That's exactly where I wanted to finish up. I imagine I'm running out of time very quickly.
This doesn't necessarily depend on the ability of one first nation, perhaps in the immediate area of Sioux Lookout, to make an application. There is a possibility for a number of communities to come together.
9:35 a.m.
A witness
That's right.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Mr. Rickford.
Now we go to
Mr. Bélanger, you have five minutes.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
The meeting will be ending before 2:00 p.m., but the speaking time allotted to me is nevertheless limited to five minutes. That's interesting. I'll request another turn in order to have 10 minutes instead of seven.
This is rather interesting. I had a set of questions ready, but I'll pursue what has been asked there.
How prevalent is it for municipal lands to become part of reserves?
9:40 a.m.
Director General, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's still very much the exception.
I think the percentage would be less than 20, Martin?
9:40 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
You mean 20% for urban reserves?
9:40 a.m.
Director General, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes. That's as opposed to 80% for rural. The last time I looked that was about the proportion.
9:40 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
There are some large urban centres across Canada that have sort of grown up around a reserve, because their urban boundaries have been expanding. That has happened in Vancouver and in Calgary, but where there's land actually being picked, or selected, or purchased within a municipal boundary, that's obviously becoming more prevalent. But we're still at the infancy, I think.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
What happens to the tax treatment once it becomes part of a reserve?
9:40 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's where you get into the municipal development services agreements, where the services are provided to the reserve and it's based on a tax in lieu. In lieu of taxes, there's some kind of payment under that agreement, a grant in lieu of taxes.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
9:40 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That would be the first nation.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
The first nation, and does it get that compensated by the Government of Canada?
9:40 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
They would have to pay for it through their revenue streams, depending on what is going to be on that reserve. If it's purely economic development, then it would have to be out of their development moneys.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Okay. Keep that thought on file for a moment, but grants in lieu of taxes, in my understanding, are paid to the municipality, not to the province, correct?
9:40 a.m.
Director, Lands Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's right, yes.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
If a piece of land is currently occupied, for which the municipality, school boards, and the province get money through acquisition in one way, shape, or form, it becomes part of a reserve, and then the school boards and the province cease to get income from that property, correct? If the taxes generated are grants in lieu of taxes paid by the reserve, the aboriginal community, to the municipality only, then the province and the school boards cease receiving income from that property, correct?