Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2009

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Braun, you talked about how it often takes five to seven years to get the ATR process concluded. I think you mentioned that a survey takes two environmental studies, a design study, and municipal agreements. All together it takes five years. With respect to those 105 parcels, are these things all done?

[Carl Braun]

Those 105 have no need for a municipal service agreement, nor third-party interests, instruments or tools. Certainly they'll need an environmental review and audit. Certainly they'll need to be surveyed.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Are there impediments to that in the way of financial resourcing?

[Carl Braun]

Definitely. I'm the technician. I work with the Manitoba region on a daily basis, and the frustrations are voiced, if not daily then weekly, about the limited capacity, the limited resources. They are as frustrated as we are. Again, I'm speaking from a technical point of view. They've also voiced on record that they, too, are frustrated with the additions to reserve policy themselves. There's a lot to discuss.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Our documents here indicate that there are 26 first nations, at least, in Manitoba that have TLE eligibility. Do I take it that the 19 that are in the TLE Committee are different, that there's no overlap between the 19 and the 7? Are those the 26 first nations? Is that all of the first nations with eligibility for TLE, or are there more?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I think that might have been directed to Mr. Braun.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

It's directed to anyone who can answer it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Chief Nelson had his hand up as well, Mr. Duncan, so if you wanted to allow that, let's go ahead with Chief Nelson.

[Chief Terry Nelson]

To help the committee understand the difference between Saskatchewan and Manitoba, in Saskatchewan the average conversion process took two years. Saskatchewan was earlier in their TLE agreements. Unfortunately, what happened after that was that the bureaucrats got hold of it in Manitoba and we ended up with an ATR process.

Having spoken with Minister Prentice at one point, the former Minister of Indian Affairs, he said that he saw Saskatchewan TLE agreements coming before his desk week after week after week. In all of his time in that office, he didn't see anything come across his desk from Manitoba. So that is clearly one of the frustrations we're feeling in Manitoba.

We had a national day of action on treaty land entitlement, and I was the one who was focusing in on that. We did have a national day of action based on the fact that TLE was not moving ahead--the honour of the crown. From the second time I met with Minister Prentice to the time that he converted the reserve parcel of land, 70 acres of land near the city of Winnipeg, it took six weeks. From the second time I met with Minister Prentice to June 13, 2007, it took him six weeks to convert that land, so it can be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Chief and Mr. Duncan.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Could Mr. Chief answer my question? He has his hand up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I'm sorry, I missed that.

Go ahead, Mr. Chief, briefly.

[Paul Chief]

There are 64 first nations in Manitoba. We are all entitled to treaty land entitlement under the treaty obligations. The problem is that we have to prove that we are entitled to more lands. Twenty-four bands have proven that fact, and there are still 40 bands that have to initiate process through ATR—I'm not too sure of the acronym--but we have to prove our case, even though within our treaty signing it stated that we would be entitled to more lands.

So to your question, sir, as to how many bands, the answer is every one of us. Every one of our communities is entitled to treaty land entitlement, but we have to prove it to Canada.

Megwetch.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Chief Hudson, did you have a brief comment to add?

Please go ahead.

[Chief Glenn Hudson]

I wanted to answer his question directly. There are 21 first nations that are part of the TLEC, and in Treaty One there are 5 that have their own TLE agreements. Peguis is one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I thank you all.

Thank you, Mr. Duncan.

We're now going to begin the second round.

We'll start with Mr. Bélanger for five minutes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Now I understand how Madam Crowder feels all the time. You have the second round, third round; you get....

Has the 2000 Manitoba Claim Settlements Implementation Act been of any use, in your opinion?

[Carl Braun]

I'll comment briefly, again from a technical standpoint.

Under the umbrella agreement, the Manitoba framework agreement, there was one attempt to use the act. As I recognized, there was a flaw in the wording from the Manitoba region in the submission to the Department of Justice. The DOJ then rejected it.

It is dysfunctional. The region has not mastered it yet. I can report we've been requesting a definition of the process--a flow chart and the technical detail on how to use it. After years of requesting it, we just received that last week.

One example would be the Brokenhead Ojibway Nation in what's entitled an East St. Paul parcel. The community went through the designation process to use the act, and it was returned or rejected by the Department of Justice, which pinpointed some inadequacies in the Manitoba region as well.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

You say you received the flow chart of how the act might work last week.

[Carl Braun]

Yes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I wonder if that's a coincidence. My cynicism is showing here. Sorry.

I want to go back to the questions Mr. Duncan was asking Mr. Braun. Let's see if we can get the committee engaged in something here.

You say 105 parcels are unencumbered. Are they part of the priorities, or is there a priority list of the 360 remaining parcels? Of the 480 parcels, are they set in order of priority or not?

[Carl Braun]

The INAC Manitoba region put together what they call a dashboard. The term is questionable in our minds. It's a list of their priorities to achieve the ministerial commitment. Another list exists, and that's a list of the first nations priorities. Certainly some of those parcels we've talked about are on that list.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Can we get from you or Paul Chief the list of the 105 that are within your priorities? Maybe not the whole 105, but could you get that to us?

Perhaps we can ask the department that, if the committee wishes to engage in that. Of those that are unencumbered and you treat as priorities, how fast can they get those resolved? Maybe we could try that and see what happens.

How soon could you get that to us?

[Paul Chief]

As Mr. Nelson said, if you have the right political leaders in place, it'll probably take six weeks.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

No. How soon can you get us that list? Are you saying we'll have it in six weeks? Is that what you said?