Evidence of meeting #3 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michel Roy  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Ralph Brant  Director General, Specific Claims, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Perry Billingsley  Director General, Policy Development and Coordination, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Members of Parliament, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. This is the third meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

This morning the orders of the day are with regard to a briefing on the issue of specific claims and comprehensive claims.

Members know that after the subcommittee meeting last week we circulated the agenda for this week. At the end of this meeting we'll try to reserve 15 minutes to consider the future work plan as well.

This morning we're pleased to welcome Michel Roy.

Mr. Roy is the Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government; Ralph Brant is the Director General, Specific Claims, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, and Perry Billingsley is the Director General, Policy Development and Coordination, Treaties and Aboriginal Government.

I think we'll be starting with Monsieur Roy.

You have 10 minutes.

Then we'll go to questions.

9 a.m.

Michel Roy Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank committee members for inviting me to appear here this morning.

We want to start by explaining the context and roles of the policies and processes in place to manage aboriginal rights, treaty rights and the historic grievances of first nations peoples, and to discuss with you the way in which these policies and processes help us balance the rights and interests of aboriginal peoples with those of Canadian citizens. So we are here to provide you with some explanations, but particularly to answer your questions on comprehensive claims, aboriginal self-government and the implementation of these agreements. In addition, at the committee's request, we will deal with the issue of specific claims.

Effective policies and processes for managing aboriginal rights and treaty rights as well as the historic grievances of first nations peoples are essential if the Canadian federation is to function harmoniously.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Could you slow down slightly? Translation does not have an actual copy of your text.

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

All right.

They guide us in the management of constitutional, federal and provincial responsibility in the area of aboriginal rights and treaty rights. Comprehensive claim agreements provide certainty regarding the ownership and management of land and resources. Self-government agreements, for their part, set up aboriginal governments that are accountable to their citizens and reduce federal responsibilities in managing the internal affairs of aboriginal communities.

Finally, through the specific claims programs, Canada can settle historic grievances related to the legal and financial obligations not carried out by the federal Crown with respect to first nations. These policies and processes for managing aboriginal rights and titles help us keep social order by helping us reach negotiated solutions to historic grievances and to disputes regarding aboriginal rights. Unfortunately, we need only think of situations such as the Oka or Ipperwash crises, both of which resulted in loss of life. It cost over $100 million to manage the Oka crisis.

On a more positive note, we would mention the Supreme Court of Canada decision on the issue of the existence of aboriginal rights and titles in the Maritimes. The policies and processes we implement enabled us to strike a fragile balance between aboriginal and non-aboriginal fishers in the region. In fact, the Canadian courts, in their decisions involving the interpretation of aboriginal rights, regularly invite the parties to seek a negotiated settlement to their dispute. The courts regularly send us back to the negotiating table, when the communities take us to court.

So we could say that Canada's policy frameworks for addressing aboriginal and treaty rights, which we call section 35 rights, include the comprehensive land claims policy, which provides for negotiated resolution of aboriginal land rights and claims in those parts of Canada where aboriginal rights were not addressed by treaty. You have in front of you a map, where you can see the modern treaties that have been negotiated up to now. The historic treaties, as you know, cover the Prairies and the majority of Ontario, except for the area of la vallée de l'Outaouais. All that part of the country is covered by the historic treaties, and then you have the northern part and the northeast covered by comprehensive claims, or what we call modern treaties.

The inherent right of self-government policy provides for negotiation of practical arrangements for the exercise of self-government rights of aboriginal people, recognized by Canada in 1995 as an existing aboriginal right under section 35 of the Constitution Act. Reaching those types of agreements is just the beginning. Those agreements are establishing a new relationship between the aboriginal governments, the federal crown, and provincial and territorial colleagues and governments. The establishment of this new relationship is not without its own challenges. Comments from the land claims coalition, from the Office of the Auditor General, and from the Senate committee are helping us with the development of approaches that will help all parties develop a new relationship based on reconciliation.

The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has been assigned the responsibility, on behalf of the Government of Canada, for negotiation of comprehensive land claims, self-government agreements, and specific claims, and the responsibility to oversee the implementation of those agreements.

The federal government has achieved significant results as a result of the agreements we have negotiated with our partners. For example, Nunavut, whose 10th anniversary we are celebrating, was established and created as a result of an agreement on comprehensive claims. As you can see on the map, agreements cover most of the Yukon and a large area of the Northwest Territories, as well as Northern Quebec, part of Labrador and the Nisga'a Territory in British Columbia. More recently, an agreement, that will come into force on April 3 of this year, has been entered into with the Tsawwassen first nation in the Vancouver area. Self-government negotiations have shown the inherent right to self-government can be negotiated under the Canadian Constitution. There is support for the introduction of modern governance regimes, which must be accountable to the citizens they serve.

In addition, we have settled approximately 40% of the specific claims submitted to date. We have met most of the obligations arising out of historic treaties having to do with the total reserve area in the Prairies. We also gave over $2 billion to Aboriginal communities in Canada and transferred 15,000 square kilometres of land to first nations by way of settlements. However, the government's ongoing commitment is necessary if we are to manage the issue of Aboriginal rights and treaty rights effectively.

Land claims are still in effect for 20% of the land area of Canada, and involve close to 270 Aboriginal communities. The implementation of the existing agreements requires ongoing attention, and we face constant legal and political pressure to develop new approaches, temporary or interim arrangements, and additional funding to advance the issue of Aboriginal rights and the implementation of these agreements.

In fact, Minister Strahl has given us a mandate to explore with our aboriginal and government partners the options for dealing with some of these pressures in order to help us achieve some results. Some of you may have heard of the joint table established in British Columbia. This is a process put in place to explore these options.

With respect to the implementation of the historic and modern treaties, we have identified a need to renew existing policies and processes to ensure the effective management of the obligations of all parties and to establish an ongoing relationship based on the principle of reconciliation, which underlies the signing of these historic and modern treaties.

Finally, as you all know, there has been a major reform of specific treaties designed to speed up results and to promote greater transparency and an increased feeling that the process is consistent with natural justice. Since October 16, 2008, a new tribunal has been in place along with a new process for dealing with claims, one that was devised in cooperation with the Assembly of First Nations.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, I would like to take a few minutes to present the key components of the policy on comprehensive claims and Aboriginal self-government. If you would like to have more details on specific claims, we could ask Mr. Brant to provide them.

The comprehensive claims policy was adopted in 1973 and covers the negotiation of ancestral rights not extinguished by treaty. As you can see on the map, this covers the entire north of Canada, both east and west. The main objective is to end the uncertainty regarding the lands and resources, to encourage self-sufficiency and the social and cultural wellbeing of aboriginal communities, and to reduce, of course, the number of disputes regarding aboriginal rights. The settlement agreements define a broad range of rights and benefits such as the complete ownership of certain lands. In this case, the reserve status disappears for these communities. There are also guaranteed rights regarding hunting and fishing.

There is also guaranteed participation in the management of the land and resources in the region covered by the settlement, financial allowances, a sharing of revenue arising out of the use of resources and economic development measures.

To date, we have signed 22 comprehensive claim agreements in Canada, the most recent of which was the Tsawwassen agreement in British Columbia, which I referred to earlier.

Over the years, this process has taught us that there is no model for a universal treaty. The final agreements vary considerably among the provinces and territories. We really must adapt our approaches to provincial and territorial realities. Negotiating a treaty is a generation-long project. On average, it takes 15 years to negotiate a final agreement, and about 10 years for the initial implementation. At the moment, there are some 80 comprehensive claim negotiating processes underway throughout the country. Since lands and resources come under provincial jurisdiction, the provinces are essential partners in these negotiations, as are the territorial governments.

Consequently, governments' ability to manage lands and resources without a treaty is being increasingly reduced because of the case law on infringements of rights and obligations to consult. Since 1982, over 40 decisions of the Supreme Court have influenced our understanding of the nature and scope of section 35 of the Canadian Constitution.

For example, the courts have said that the honour of the Crown requires that effective, fair processes be put in place to deal with the issue of aboriginal rights, and, as I said earlier, the courts often send us back to the negotiating table to come up with a negotiated settlement.

I will touch on the issue of aboriginal self-government, just to give you an idea of what is involved.

In 1995, the inherent rights policy recognized the inherent right of self-government as an existing aboriginal right under section 35 of the Constitution Act.

The policy seeks to focus on the negotiation of practical arrangements to provide for the exercise of self-government within the Canadian constitutional framework, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Government negotiations cover matters that are internal and integral to the aboriginal groups. National interest powers—Canadian sovereignty, defence, and international relations—are not negotiable. Negotiations can focus on core governance in one or more jurisdictions. Quite often first nations will ask for jurisdiction on education, child and family services, or other priorities for the community. First nations might also negotiate a comprehensive government arrangement that would cover all the authorities within the jurisdiction.

Self-government represents a new governance arrangement that shifts to a government-to-government relationship, instead of the dependency that we have under the Indian Act. It provides first nations governments with more responsibility, risk, and accountability to their citizens. To date, Canada has completed 17 or 18 agreements of self-government. We have 73 active tables right now involving 385 communities. Self-government negotiations are addressing significant policy challenges related to requirements for co-governance structure and political and financial accountability mechanisms, financial costs of implementing self-government, capacity for program and service delivery, and manageability of intergovernmental relations and implementation mechanisms.

Maybe I should stop there.

It will be a great pleasure for us to answer your questions. If members wish, we can also provide greater detail about specific claims.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Mr. Roy. You took a few extra minutes, but since we have no other speakers today, we allowed you a little more time. I thank the committee members for their indulgence.

Now we will proceed to questions from members.

Mr. Russell.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Roy. It is good to see you again.

And to our other witnesses, it's my first time, I believe, meeting you this morning.

I want to go back to the comprehensive claims implementation process. As you know, this is an ongoing matter. Since becoming critic, I've met with a couple of groups, the Nisga'a in particular, who have experienced difficulty with their fiscal financial arrangements and the negotiations that have been ongoing for some years. They're telling me that they're having to borrow from other pots of funding in order to pay for the core services and operations, which puts a bit of a strain on their particular community.

I talked to some people from the Inuit regions. There are some outstanding issues around implementation there as well. Basically, their sense is that the crown is not honouring its legal obligations under the modern treaties. I'm just wondering if the department is not undertaking some review and a different approach to the implementation of comprehensive claims, with a view to making them much more efficient and also with a view to honouring the crown's obligations.

I understand the difficulty, because under a number of different agreements you have the Department of Fisheries and Oceans handling something, and you might have the Department of Health involved, so there's a whole range of departments out there and I'm wondering if there's a different approach happening.

As well, I was wondering if you can give me a brief update on something very close to home, the Innu Nation Agreement, or New Dawn Agreement, which was announced with the province last fall. I understand they're back at the negotiating table, but I'm wondering where the federal presence is at. Have you resolved all federal issues relative to the Innu Nation claim, and what kind of timetable are we looking at?

Of course, there's also--and it's not a new one, Mr. Roy, we've talked about it many times--the Labrador Métis Nation claim, which was originally submitted in 1990 and was resubmitted in 1995. There was supposed to be a reconciliation process since 2002. Under that agreement there was supposed to be an independent legal opinion conducted. I'm wondering if there has been agreement reached between the Labrador Métis Nation and the federal government about the parameters to that independent legal opinion. As you know, there were some outstanding issues there.

I'm wondering if you can comment on those issues. Thank you.

9:20 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

Thank you.

Maybe I can start with the Labrador Métis Nation issue. We had an agreement with them about having a third party review, but now the Labrador Métis Nation are asking us for some time because they want to put forward new information on their claim. Of course, we will be giving them the time they need to provide more information to Canada and then we will be reviewing the agreement and we'll have the third party review. We agreed to that between the two parties. We are just waiting now to get new information from the Labrador Métis Nation, who are asking us for some time for that.

In regard to your question about the Innu Nation agreement in Labrador and the discussions with the province, of course the province and the Innu Nation reached an agreement; it's a bilateral agreement. We were kept informed of the content of it, but it was really a matter between the two of them. It could be eventually leading to the broader question of the negotiation of the treaty going on right now. Negotiations are going quite well. The three parties are at the table. We are expecting to reach an agreement in principle in a year to a year and a half. The fact that the province and the Innu Nation were able to reach a bilateral agreement is a good sign that a relationship is being built here, that people can work together and reach agreement. It's promising for, eventually, a treaty among the three parties.

On your question, Mr. Russell, on the Nisga'a and the renewals, as you may have been told by the Nisga'a, we had a lot of discussions with the Nisga'a government about their cost of self-government and all of that. We are learning a lot from this experience, just as we are learning from the Yukon experience. Right now we are working internally to develop a mandate for the renewals of those agreements based on all of the information that we are getting from the Nisga'a and Yukon first nations and the sharing of knowledge with the two groups. We are working right now.

We're now working to develop a mandate to renew these agreements.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Do I have a bit more time?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

You still have a minute and a half, Mr. Russell.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

My Lord, what do you do with all the time?

You know, in Labrador, for instance, there is a lot of pressure, like in many other parts of the country. We have mining exploration. There is possible development--hydroelectric power with the Lower Churchill project. Road development is happening, and there are other resource developments. The issue is that you don't want to have the aboriginals' rights imposed upon them by third party interests. There has to be some protection for aboriginal rights. The suspension of reaching a final agreement can have an impact. I'm wondering whether there are any timeframes associated with the treaties in Labrador.

I think there's also an obligation on the part of the crown to not settle with one at the expense of the other. Some of these land claims overlap, but has any thought been given to maybe having a common table in Labrador, where you have one claim already settled, one that may be accepted, and there is another claim in negotiations? This doesn't include some overlap from claims within Quebec, from the Naskapi and the Montagnais. I'm just wondering if any thought has been given to that.

But back to my question, is there any change in the implementation on comprehensive claims policy?

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

You only have time for a very brief response, Mr. Roy, and then we'll have to proceed. Perhaps you'll have an opportunity to comment further on the question.

Please proceed.

9:25 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

On the policy around implementation, we are working right now with the key partners in the coalition. And we're looking at the Senate report, to review our approach on implementation and trying to develop a new approach that will hopefully help to meet the expectations of aboriginal groups.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Mr. Lemay.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Good afternoon, Mr. Roy, and thank you for being here today. Thanks too to the officials.

I have been a member of this committee for three years already. A number of people listen to what happens here, particularly aboriginal people. You made many very interesting comments in your opening remarks and in your explanations. I listened to you very carefully.

The Indian Specific Claims Commission is headed by Mr. Dupuis. What does this commission do? What are its limitations? Who gives it its mandate? We worked hard here to pass Bill C-30, which became the Specific Claims Tribunal Act. You referred to that in your remarks. You said that this body has been in place since October 16. How many cases are outstanding at the moment, and what type are they? I would ask you to start by answering these two questions.

9:25 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

Fine. Thank you very much.

The Indian Specific Claims Commission headed by Mr. Dupuis is an appeal mechanism of ministerial decisions regarding the validity of specific claims. This appeal commission has the power to make recommendations, but not to make decisions.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Generally speaking, aboriginals do not agree with the minister's decisions because they are not favourable to aboriginal peoples. In fact, had the minister been on the side of the aboriginals, the issue would have been settled, and the process would have been underway. If I understand correctly, when the minister does not make a decision in their favour, they appeal to the commission, and it hears the case. That is why the process takes so long. Is it because of the testimony of elders and everything else that is involved?

9:25 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

Yes, exactly.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I see.

9:25 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

The commission is travelling to the communities to hear from elders, evaluate the situation and make a recommendation to government. However, under the new legislation to which you referred, the commission will be ending its activities on March 31 of this year.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

That is exactly what was not clear.

9:30 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

The commission will be closing out its books and shutting down on March 31.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

And it will be replaced by the Specific Claims Tribunal?

9:30 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

The tribunal has been in place since October 16. What you passed here is in fact a decision-making authority. We see this as a major improvement in the process as regards justice and equity for first nations.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I apologize for interrupting you, but I'm just trying to understand. I have read all the commission's reports. Its recommendations amount to several million dollars. Do you think you will be up to the job with the tribunal? Cases must be argued before the tribunal and a decision is made with no appeal. Is the department ready to deal with that?

9:30 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Michel Roy

The department is ready to deal with that. The commission process was also demanding for the department. We will now have a tribunal subject to established, very clear rules that were in fact developed with the Assembly of First Nations. So there will be a process. Of course this will be demanding for the system, but we are preparing at the moment to deal with this.