Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2009

[Paul Thompson]

It is to improve mutual understanding of aboriginal needs and business needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

This may be to Mr. Forbes.

I wanted to make sure we had some clarification on a couple of comments. I think Mr. Bevington mentioned or referred to this notion of it being double the cost of living in the north. Is that founded in data? Is that supportable?

[Chris Forbes]

I wouldn't have thought that it was double. I don't have any numbers in front of me on what the consumer price is, on average. It's going to vary, obviously, from community to community as well. The price levels in Yellowknife versus Baker Lake are going to be quite different. Certainly Statistics Canada would have information on price levels across all communities, but not on all that many.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We'll follow up on that.

Along the same lines, we may want to take a look in terms of what the differences are on the compensation side as well. I think most people would expect that the cost of living situation is going to be considerably higher in the north. As to where that is and what other compensating circumstances are in place to counter that, I think that is a question we'll drill down to a little further on too.

[Chris Forbes]

I think you'll find—and again, I can speak about Yellowknife—that Yellowknife has one of the highest, if not the highest, per capita incomes for a city in this country. There's a push-pull thing there. You know, how much of that is reflecting the costs? But it does have one of the higher, if not the highest, per capita income.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

That's the point. I think we have to look at the total picture.

Finally, Mr. Forbes, on the notion of transfers, there were the three main planks of the transfer program. Are those tabulated on a per capita basis, or would you work that out on a per capita plus formula?

[Chris Forbes]

The health and social transfer is on a per capita basis and is available to the provinces and the territories.

The territorial formula for financing is a separate one that goes to just the three territories, as I said. It totals about $2.5 billion. That one is calculated differently. It takes into account a measure of what we call the gross expenditure base, which is some measure of the expenditure needs of the territories, and then it reduces that by an estimate of their capacity to raise revenues. It fills the gap, if you will, between those two, which is somewhat different.

The provinces have the equalization program, which looks at the revenue side only and tries to bring revenues up to some sort of national standard. The territorial transfer program is a bit different in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

It looks at revenues as well as capacity.

[Chris Forbes]

It is on the spending side, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. Very good. Thank you very much. We are just on time.

Mr. Lévesque, you have another five minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

First off, Mr. Chair, I want to say that when you talk about twice the price, I can tell you from experience that it is much closer to three times the price. For example, last year, a pound of butter that sold for $2.99 here in the region was selling for $7.80 there. That is just one example. There is a reason that we generally ask Airpost Mail for help so that people can have access to fresh products; it is extremely expensive.

Usually, I understand things quickly, but I need a lot of explanation. Earlier, you introduced Elisha as the director of economic development. Is he the director of northern economic development, Canadian economic development or economic development in the Skills Branch? I would like that clarified.

[Elisha Ram, Director, Microeconomic Policy Analysis, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance]

Sure. Thank you for the opportunity to say something.

Our branch in the Department of Finance is the economic development and corporate finance branch, and we're responsible for the overall microeconomic policy of the government. That includes the north, of course, but it also includes all other regions of the country.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

So, it is Canadian economic development for the north. In that case, what is your relationship with CanNor?

[Elisha Ram]

That's a good question as well.

Our job is to advise the Minister of Finance on issues related to economic development across Canada and in various regions. We work closely with the agencies that deliver economic development programming to ensure they are living within their means and that their activities are consistent with the economic policies of the government at large.

We are also responsible for helping the minister and providing him with advice as to any additional resources that may be required in different areas of the country. So our relationship to CanNor is one of oversight as well as a challenge function should they wish to enhance or expand their activities.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

You did not speak very often, but it was worth listening when you did. Thank you, that is what I wanted to know.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Todd Russell]

Thank you, Monsieur Lévesque.

We'll go to our next speaker on the list, and that's Mr. Clarke, for five minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming in today.

Can you describe the level of coordination that currently exists between the federal departments on the investments and/or the projects of the north? How would the investments in the projects benefit from improved coordination?

[Paul Thompson]

Why don't I start on that one?

The collaboration takes place at various levels and stages in the process. We work very closely with our partners at Indian and Northern Affairs, particularly the economic development branch of Indian and Northern Affairs, where we've been coordinating our new policy initiatives.

I spoke about the successor program to AHRDS. When we were bringing that forward through the design stages, we were working very closely to ensure it was designed in a way that was complementary to the economic development programming, whether it's the community economic development officers who are supported across the country or whether it's some of the new investments in aboriginal economic development across the country. So there's complementarity in the design of the programs, looking at making sure there are connections in governance and decision-making as the programs are rolled out. So at the national level, assistant deputy ministers have a governance structure that ensures the investments and the decisions, so we're able to make those connections as we go.

On the ground, every one of our programs, whether it's AHRDS or ASEP, has a strong local presence. Our colleagues in Service Canada are the ones who administer on a day-to-day basis the agreements with our recipients, including those who deliver AHRDS. They serve on the ground as another means of collaboration with local levels, whether it's with officials in CanNor in this case or with territorial governments.

So there's local-level collaboration and national-level collaboration on the frameworks and the broad strategies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Another two or three minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'll share my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Sure, go ahead.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Forbes, I'm wondering if you have anything to do with the federal employees in remote and isolated places, in terms of their top-ups.

[Chris Forbes]

That would be the Treasury Board Secretariat that you'd need to talk to about that.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Treasury Board. Is there any tie-in between their calculations and northern residents allowance?

[Chris Forbes]

To be honest with you, I don't know. You'd have to talk to someone from the compensation group at Treasury Board Secretariat about that.