Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Taki Sarantakis]

The infrastructure stimulus fund is an entirely new program, but under the PT base, each of the three territories ended up receiving more money than they used to under the old MRIF program, yes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes, but that wasn't my question. I'll go on record, because it looks like the municipalities are not getting the money they used to get in the past, which is what it was primarily for in the first place.

Let's go on to David, and I'll ask all three questions so I get them in before the chair cuts me off.

One, did you want to make any comments on frozen methane? I think you mentioned that briefly. There are huge resources and there is also a huge effect on global warming.

The second question is on the fact that we don't have any technology to clean up oil spills under the ice. Do you know if there's any research? I've been told in past committees that there's not, but is there any research going on by the federal government?

And finally, on geoscience, could you just tell us briefly how we compare to other countries' expenditures, especially northern countries, on geoscience?

[Dr. David Boerner]

Frozen methane is also known as gas hydrates. It's a poorly known resource, but it's basically methane trapped in permafrost ice crystals. It's known on the land and the sea floor. We've had an active program, particularly some work done in a place called Mallik in the Northwest Territories, to see whether we could have a production test of these resources. It's been relatively successful and we think methane-type resources can be developed.

The challenge right now is that gas prices probably won't support the development of this in the short term, because of things like shale gas. There's actually a surplus of gas resources. We're going to continue studying the problem and try to investigate what it means, because the estimates are quite substantial for the amount of methane that might be available in these resources. As we try to tailor our activities according to the likelihood of economic development in the relatively near term, it will probably not see as much emphasis in the near future, but we're going to keep working on it.

Does that answer your question?

On oil spills under the ice, I really couldn't comment. I'm not an expert in that particular area, the cleanup part. I think you would have to ask someone else.

The final question was on geoscience and how we compare with other nations. Canada has been pretty good about having a good geoscience base. You can see the gap in the north, so we probably haven't been as good as some of the northern nations, but maybe in the past we haven't had to be because we've been so successful in the southern part.

Russia has an enormous effort towards collecting geoscience across its territory. They have thousands of people in their geological surveys. We have about 500. They're investing quite substantially in trying to understand the resources. I think it's debatable which approach is better. We feel confident that we produce good results in these, without necessarily having the huge investment. I think this current GEM program is a really worthwhile investment that will give us a good insight into the resource potential we have in the north.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

We will now move on to Mr. Lévesque from the Bloc Québécois.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Mr. Boerner, slide 3 includes a classification of the provinces based on mineral and energy production.

Do you have another slide indicating the mineral and energy resources in those provinces? Or could we get a more detailed description?

[Dr. David Boerner]

Yes, this is information from Statistics Canada. They actually provide the breakdown by mineral resource. I don't have it with me, but I can certainly provide the table and information telling you which resources add up to how much is produced in each province. Absolutely.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Slide 4 indicates that 60% of the North has not undergone modern geological mapping. Based on your definitions, Quebec has had no modern mapping. Is that what we are seeing?

[Dr. David Boerner]

We didn't actually estimate the state of mapping in each of the provinces, so there was no information included on this. Quebec actually has quite good geological information, and they have one of the better geological surveys in the entire country in that province. The fact it's not shown here is because we didn't include it in the estimates; we focused only on the territories for this graph.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

The document indicates that Newfoundland has had modern mapping done and this is also the case for Ontario, which borders my riding near James Bay. However, nothing similar is shown for Quebec. That is why I ask the question.

I am now going to move on to Ms. Roy, Mr. Roussel or Mr. Sarantakis.

I am originally from the Lower St. Lawrence, I studied in Quebec City and I worked my whole life in Abitibi. My riding, which goes from Abitibi to Schefferville, borders Mr. Roussel's area. He was born in Saguenay, which, by the way, is where I met my wife.

A gentleman called Mr. Legault, from the Terrebonne area, near Montreal, has a modern vision for development. He has been trying to get a railroad built between Schefferville and the coast of Nunavik. This could be a wonderful opportunity for the people in Nunavut. He has been trying to do this for a long time. Mr. Roussel can confirm that boat travel is a problem whether it is in Nunavut, or Nunavik in Northern Quebec. In fact, it is only possible for a short time each year.

In 2007, if I remember correctly, $33 billion over seven years was allocated specifically to develop road and rail transport in particular. Perhaps it was for something else as well.

Have you received Mr. Legault's application? Have you taken any steps or done any feasibility studies in this regard? Mr. Legault communicates regularly with me. He relies heavily on federal assistance. A number of companies have already shown interest. If the federal government got involved in this project, I feel that it could bring about rapid progress for the nations along the coast.

[Guylaine Roy]

I am going to answer first and Taki can then perhaps add details about the infrastructure plan.

You asked me whether I was aware of Mr. Legault's request. He has not communicated with me, but he could well have spoken about his project with someone else in the federal government.

With regard to the $33 billion over seven years that was announced under the infrastructure program, those funds cover a wide range of infrastructure. It includes transportation, but it also includes waste water and a number of other areas.

With regard to rail transport, you no doubt know that Transport Canada supports the aboriginal company that provides service to Schefferville. If you have no objection, I will let Taki tell you about the eligibility criteria for rail infrastructure funding.

[Taki Sarantakis]

In the past, we have undertaken railway projects in cooperation with the Quebec government. I think it was to the tune of $200 million. We have to look at the merits of the projects and of undertaking them. However, we have not yet had an application for the project you refer to, to my knowledge.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Currently, the Canadian Air Force is responsible for transportation perishable products, but that costs an arm and a leg, as they say. We are hearing about an additional $60 million to extend the program. Currently, three pilot communities are involved. An application involving all northern communities, including Nunavut, has been filed. However, there have been no developments in this area. Other food items are sent by truck from Montreal to Halifax. They are then sent by boat during the short time of the year when this is possible. Mr. Roussel can certainly talk more about this. A company just closed because it was unable to turn a profit.

Is there anything in the works in this regard?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Please give a brief response.

[Guylaine Roy]

I am not sure I understand the question. Are you asking whether there is any funding set aside for rail or marine transport?

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Are there any funds for air transportation?

[Guylaine Roy]

Do you mean air transportation to go to northern Quebec?

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Yes, while we wait for a railway or two. I am talking about air transportation to get to Northern Quebec and, by extension, to Nunavut, because they will need marine transportation to cross.

[Guylaine Roy]

Okay.

Transport Canada does not subsidize air transportation in the way that you are referring to. I know that the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs has a program called the Food Mail Program. The department might perhaps be better able to answer this question.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Merci.

We're way over time. Now let's go to Mr. Bevington. We'll try for seven minutes and see how we do.

Go ahead, Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thanks, witnesses, for being here. I have seen you in front of the transport committee, of course.

Mr. Boerner, you talked about the mining industry in the north, the relative value of it, and the requirement for more mapping. I agree, but it is not the only issue around mining and mining development. Right now in the Northwest Territories I think we have five or six active properties that could be enhanced and brought to production. They are all in areas where there is reasonable road access and a potential. They're in the developed areas. The opportunities to develop them are tied to a lot more other issues, including personnel, transportation, and energy costs. There is a whole medley of issues that we have to deal with in that regard.

What you're really talking about is future exploration. We have the potential in the Northwest Territories for quite a bit more mining activity in the near future. Don't you agree?

[Dr. David Boerner]

Yes, I do.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Okay.

With regard to diamonds, we have three mines open now. We've got a mine coming up to open in northern Ontario. We've got a mine in Saskatchewan that is supposedly going to come on stream soon.

In previous years we talked about a national diamond strategy. The value of the diamonds mined in the Northwest Territories is $2 billion. When they come to the point of retail sale, they are closer to $20 billion. The value is magnified ten times.

Is there any sense within the department that we should be working toward a national diamond strategy to extract more value out of this resource? Quite obviously, Canada is going to be a big part of the world supply over the next decades. Has that subject come back to the table?

[Dr. David Boerner]

That's an area that is in another group inside NRCan, and I wouldn't be able to speak on it.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Could you get an answer for me on that, then, from your other group? It is certainly something that merits being pursued for the whole of the country.