Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Good morning, everyone--members, witnesses, and guests--and welcome to the 42nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

This morning, we welcome back Mr. Michael Wernick, the deputy minister for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. He is joined by Mr. Jim Quinn, who has also been before us in the past. Mr. Quinn is the CFO for the department.

The orders of the day are consideration of the supplementary estimates (B) for the current calendar year. Members, I'll just say in advance that we were delayed by votes this morning on a concurrence motion in the House, so we will continue with the debate.

Along with our discussions this morning, we had planned, as you'll see in the orders of the day, for committee business. We were going to leave approximately 15 minutes for that, but certainly if speakers need to continue to ask questions on the orders of the day around the supplementary estimates, we'll continue to take speakers. We may have to postpone committee business to a later day, but that is up to you. We'll just let you know in advance.

With that, Mr. Wernick and Mr. Quinn, you're aware of the rules. You have up to 10 minutes for your presentation, and then we'll go to questions from members.

Mr. Wernick, go ahead.

[Michael Wernick, Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Actually, given that you've lost half an hour to the vote, I'm quite happy to dispense with the opening statement and get right to questions if that would be helpful to the committee.

I just wanted to put on the record that this is the 20th appearance by departmental officials at this committee in this calendar year. We enjoy our exchange with the committee and look forward to further exchanges in the coming year.

If it's possible with the committee clerk to simply take all the elegant prose of my opening statement and read it into the record of the committee, I'm quite happy to go straight to questions.

If you wish, I could race through it, if that's easier.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Why don't you do just a brief outline? Then we'll go directly to questions.

[Michael Wernick]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, as I said, I want to thank you for another opportunity to appear before the committee. Many of my colleagues who are sitting behind me have had the pleasure to appear either on bills or other issues before the committee as it's worked its way around the responsibilities of the department and its portfolio.

We're here to discuss supplementary estimates (B) for 2009-10. They were tabled on November 4. They represent approximately a quarter of a billion dollars, $249.7 million, in additional appropriations by Parliament, which will bring the department's spending to $7.6 billion in this fiscal year.

I will keep my remarks brief this morning in order to leave more time for committee members' questions.

To touch on just a couple of milestones over the last year to remind the committee of what we've been up to on Parliament's behalf--there are many things to touch on--I'll start with the legislative agenda that the committee's been seized with. You will recall that in May and June of this year Parliament passed three bills of significance to the department and the people we serve.

The Cree-Naskapi (of Quebec) Act was amended to empower the Cree of Eeyou Istchee to assume responsibility for administration of justice and economic and social development.

The Indian Oil and Gas Act was amended, at long last, to bring federal legislation in line with similar legislation in the provinces and create a more transparent and efficient regime for oil and gas operation on reserve lands.

The Maa-nulth First Nations Final Agreement in British Columbia received royal assent. This is the third final agreement in British Columbia to be signed by Canada, British Columbia, and first nations, the second final agreement ratified under the B.C. treaty process, and the first that involves multiple first nations under one treaty arrangement. With the passage of this act, the Maa-nulth are provided a framework for improved governance and social and economic development.

I expect in the new year or sooner, Mr. Chairman, we'll look forward to further debate on other legislation, including a matrimonial property bill.

Because the government placed particular priority on economic development, especially in this difficult economic climate, this past June, the department introduced a new Federal Framework for Aboriginal Economic Development.

The framework includes new investments of $200 million over four years and represents a fundamental change in the approach to supporting lands and economic development. It also recognizes the significant, real and growing opportunities for aboriginal people to move toward becoming full participants in the Canadian economy.

I'm particularly proud that we have the new economic development framework to guide our activities in this area in the coming years. That, of course, is on top of the $1.4 billion in aboriginal-specific expenditures over two years under Canada's economic action plan.

You will know that the fourth report to Canadians was released yesterday, and there was a fair bit of information on aboriginal and northern investments in communities. We have worked to produce an aboriginal-specific report card on Canada's economic action plan that follows each of these larger quarterly reports from the Minister of Finance. We expect to be putting one out before the Christmas break.

In the northern area, I would note the partnership we have on Arctic science and the Arctic research infrastructure fund that we were able to move forward on this year. Of course, a lot of this is about encouraging vibrant and sustainable communities. We have a lot of work under way with partners and a focus this year on protecting and empowering the most vulnerable members of our society.

To that end, we're very pleased that we've been able to work with provincial governments and first nations to push forward further the prevention-based approach to child and family services. We now have agreements and coverage in five provinces, covering nearly half of first nations children in Canada, and we hope to have further agreements in the new year.

In addition to the regular spending on first nations elementary and secondary education, which is approximately $1.3 billion a year, we've had the opportunity, through Canada's economic action plan, to make further investments in first nations education. There are a significant number of communities that received infrastructure funding to deal with school and community facility issues, which will help keep youth in school and give them a better educational experience.

There are all sorts of partnerships I could point to. Perhaps given the events of the last week or two, I should touch on our involvement in the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics, which are coming up.

And all partners are eagerly looking forward to the 2010 Olympic Winter Games, which feature the unprecedented participation of aboriginal people. These games are more than a cultural and sporting event. They will also provide an economic legacy for aboriginal people for years to come.

So the approach we have pursued on behalf of the government, and on your behalf as parliamentarians, is designed to help northerners and aboriginal peoples improve their lives and futures. Many of the $249 million of investments outlined in supplementary estimates (B) reflect that approach. I won't go through the list of highlights; they're fairly clear.

I would signal one other important change through the course of the year, which is the creation of the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency, with its responsibilities in the north. We're forging a new partnership between the department and the agency for the years to come. Because its estimates are currently covered by the department, if you have questions on the agency I'm happy to take them, and we have colleagues from the agency here. Next year you'll see separate reports on plans and priorities, separate reporting, and separate estimates from the agency, and the line between the two organizations will be clearer.

I think I should quit while I'm ahead and stop there, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to thank the committee for its attention and time over the past year on many issues. I know you've taken a particular interest in the north in recent weeks and have had the opportunity to see that wonderful part of Canada.

I'm pleased to answer any questions the committee has and I'm ably assisted by my chief financial officer. This is your last chance to get at him; unfortunately, he's moving to another federal department after Christmas. I have other colleagues behind me who would be pleased to fill in.

Of course, if there are questions that are fairly specific, we can follow up with written responses, as has been our practice in the past.

Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We want to thank you, as well, Mr. Wernick and Mr. Quinn.

We will now begin the first round of questions with Mr. Russell.

Mr. Russell, go ahead.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Quinn and Mr. Wernick. It's good to have you and your officials here for the 20th time, and I'm sure you can look forward to a 21st at some time in the future.

To start off, I have a couple of questions. In your remarks, you mentioned Bill C-8, matrimonial real property, and you said it may come next year or sooner. Well, there are not many days left in this particular year: are we anticipating that this would come next week?

[Michael Wernick]

It's in the hands of House leaders as to what the schedule is for the remaining couple of weeks. It's a possibility. It is my understanding that there are other bills that are possibilities. It's really very much in the hands of the whips and House leaders to do the schedule. We just know that it's there on the order paper.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

In terms of the specific claims commission, in the supplementary estimates there was a request for additional funds. This has been in place for a little over a year now, I guess. Where is it in terms of its formation and operations? Has it been functioning at all? Have there been any judges appointed? Can you give us an update?

[Michael Wernick]

I'm glad to be able to report that there are some judges; I believe there were three appointed last Friday by the Minister of Justice after a process involving the Assembly of First Nations in their appointment. There were limitations in how far the tribunal could be set up without the judges. It's an arm's-length independent body and they will decide the rules and procedures.

Staff at the tribunal have done as much as they could. There are offices and facilities available. They are a couple of blocks from here, if you ever care to visit them. There are draft rules and procedures for the tribunal that are ready to go, but they do have to be approved by the judges because it's their show.

There has been a process of engaging first nations that have claims to make sure they understand this. We worked very closely with the Assembly of First Nations. We expect it will be actually dealing with cases very early in 2010.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Okay, but to date there has been no real activity.

[Michael Wernick]

No. There were no judges until Friday. They will be taking up their duties early in the new year.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Okay. Remind us again: how many judges did they want on the roster?

[Michael Wernick]

It's a panel of full-time equivalent persons from which the chair can draw down, depending on the cases. It works out to the equivalent of six full-time judges, and they can establish a larger roster than that. It will be up to the chief justice in each province as to whether they want to make people available more or less full time for this or just have it as part of their other docket.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Can they function with three?

[Michael Wernick]

I'm over my head on the procedures. It would be up to the judges to decide how they wish to hear these. My understanding is that they can split up and hear cases through smaller panels. If I've misled you on that, I'll correct the record before the end of the meeting.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I just ask this because when the bill came before us we certainly expedited it through this committee. There was a sense of urgency; at least that was the presumption on the part of the government to move this forward. So this is certainly an encouraging word, in that if this is going to be of any use we need to make sure that it functions properly.

The chief commissioner of the Indian residential schools commission has said there is a difference of minds and a difference of opinions, and that the work of this commission cannot proceed because of the attitudes in Ottawa, or with the department. I'm making some inferences, but that certainly seems to be the gist of some of the comments that have come out lately.

Can you elaborate on that a bit? We all know the history. Some commissioners resigned and new ones had to be appointed. We lost a year there. It's a five-year mandate. We're getting close to two years now and little has been done in this regard. Can you elaborate? Where are we with this process? When is the real work going to begin?

[Michael Wernick]

I can try. I'm not trying to duck the question, but Justice Sinclair is the deputy head and accounting officer of the commission. You should feel free to ask him directly.

From what I understand, they are a completely separate department of the Government of Canada. That was done quite deliberately, for all kinds of reasons. It means that they're are subject to some of the very basic transparency legislation that governs staffing and contracting. So you can't just hire your buddy and you can't just give a contract to so-and-so; there are transparency and accountability in public service staffing and public service contracting.

My take on it is that there's no real impediment to the commission doing its job. Its mandate is set out in excruciating detail in the settlement agreement. It is supposed to deliver certain events on a certain timeline. My advice to Justice Sinclair was to hire somebody experienced in the ways of Ottawa as an executive director who could help navigate him through.

My opinion is that he has the flexibility and the resources to fulfill the mandate. If he has any questions, I've certainly offered to try to help remove any obstacles.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Again, I think that you and I both, and all the committee members, know how important this is to survivors and families.

[Michael Wernick]

Yes. The commission is stocked up and running and in charge of its own work plan.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I have a very quick final question on this round. You made the statement that “...fuelled by investments such as those in these Supplementary Estimates, I'm firmly convinced that we are making progress to improve the lives of Northerners, and the lives of First Nations, Inuit and Métis...”.

Can you give us some clarity on this, specifically on Métis? How would you say the department is improving the lives of Métis throughout the country, given the expenditures that have been requested?

[Michael Wernick]

As you know, our responsibilities or activities related to Métis are dealt with through the Office of the Federal Interlocutor, Mr. Caron, who is sitting behind me. Not a lot of the programming goes through Métis; there was a political accord reached between the minister and the Métis Nation of Canada back last June, which agreed on some common priorities for particular work on issues affecting Métis veterans, Métis economic development, and the intersection between Métis and the residential schools issues. There is very active engagement with the MNC and the regional organizations on all of those.

Their particular focus this year was Métis veterans issues. You may have noticed this year that there was a trip to Juno Beach for commemoration of Métis veterans, the installation of a Red River cart on the beach in Normandy, and so on. There's been a lot of work with Veterans Affairs.

On economic development, we try to make sure that, where it's possible, there are opportunities and partnerships with Métis organizations as well, but we are pretty much constrained to a sort of an Indian mandate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Russell and Mr. Wernick. Mr. Lemay will be the next member to ask questions.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to congratulate you, Mr. Wernick—wait, I will send you flowers, and the vase may follow—as this is the first time that an Indian Affairs deputy minister has been in that position longer than two years. It's a record. I hope you know you are setting a record; congratulations. I get the feeling, as do all of my colleagues, I'm sure, that you know your files and that you are fully competent.

Now that you have the flowers, here is the vase, since we do have to do some work, as well. I am also on the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, and the justice minister appeared before us yesterday. He told us that the Specific Claims Tribunal would soon be getting to work, that appointments had been made.

I have a question for you, and I am not sure whether this is going around your department or not. But do you think the Specific Claims Tribunal will remain under the jurisdiction of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, or will it not end up under the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice? Do you know anything about that?

[Michael Wernick]

No. My answer will be brief—and thank you for the flowers. The tribunal is quite independent, a separate entity. Our department oversees the tribunal only for the purpose of appearances such as today's. The organization is totally independent and will be headed by a group of justices, and if you know them, you know that they are very fond of their independence.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I know the justices quite well after arguing cases before them for 30 years. They jealously guard their independence, and rest assured, I have the utmost respect for that.

In the supplementary estimates—and perhaps I just missed it—nowhere does it allocate or set aside money to implement the McIvor decision. It is now obvious to us that the Indian Act will have to be amended, further to the Supreme Court's decision. I have two questions.

First, when are you going to bring forward amendments to the Indian Act in compliance with the British Columbia Court of Appeal's ruling in McIvor? Second, has your department estimated how much it will cost to implement the amendment to the Indian Act arising from the McIvor decision?