Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 6th, 2010

[Sheila Fraser]

Our comment is largely related to clarity about ownership of land and about the consultation process. What the minister may have been referring to is that in many of these agreements, various water boards have been established. We looked at the question of water boards, the various boards, about four years ago, and we noted a number of problems in how they were operating. We recommended at the time that the federal government do more to support them. We have indicated that we have seen progress. They appear to be working better. I think you have to admit that it is quite a complicated regime because of the various land claim agreements and the various boards that exist there. But we think that there has been progress, actually, on how these boards are working.

The main point of this audit is that it's important to get those land claims settled so that there is more clarity around land ownership, land use, and consultation, of course, with the aboriginal communities.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

You suggested that the people from the areas that didn't have these agreements were having difficulty making their representations on development projects. Because of recent court decisions, if the proper consultation isn't done, it would certainly make them liable to court action and would probably solve the problem in a less than perfect way. But it would at least solve the problem that way.

[Sheila Fraser]

We note in the report, and Mr. Campbell might want to elaborate, cases where development projects had been under consideration for actually quite a long time and had gotten quite far through the process, but consultation wasn't done early enough. There were court challenges, and the projects had to be stopped. So it's become a very frustrating experience for everyone involved. The question is getting a consultation earlier.

Mr. Campbell might want to elaborate a little more.

[Ronnie Campbell, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Certainly.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, we did note that in areas where there was no land claim settlement, there were a considerable number of applications referred to the crown for additional consultation, which I think reflected the fact that aboriginal groups did not feel that they had been properly consulted. We compared that with areas where there had been a land claim settled, and we found that in none of those cases did they have to be further referred for consultation. In the course of our work, we did notice that imbalance in the amount of additional consultation that aboriginal groups sought after the fact.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

This is my last question. It seems from your comments that some of the economic development programs in HRSDC and INAC did not have a specific overall strategy and plan or measurable results that met the objectives of that plan from those programs. Could you comment on that?

[Sheila Fraser]

I'll let Frank Barrett respond to that one.

[Frank Barrett, Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Yes, certainly.

I would say, first of all, with respect to HRSDC's programs, that we did see that they had established objectives, and they were measuring short-term progress towards achieving those objectives. What they weren't doing was seeing what overall impact they were having over a period of time.

With respect to INAC, we had considerably more significant observations in that we had for a long period of time programs that were established but that had very vague objectives. There was no means of measuring them and no attempt to measure them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bagnell.

Maintenant, Monsieur Lévesque, pour sept minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Fraser, it is always a pleasure to meet with you and your team to hear your unadorned opinion, which is quite sound, even very sound. I would like to refer back to point 8, on page 3 of your report, in both languages. You say the following: “In regions without comprehensive land claim agreements in place, however, there is uncertainty about Aboriginal title to the land, how it may be used [...]“.

From that point of view, does it mean that this is slowing economic development?

[Sheila Fraser]

Absolutely, Mr. Chairman.

I believe that any developer or business wishing to set up in a region would want to have some certainty with regard to land and property ownership. Certainty with regard to resource ownership is therefore absolutely essential for ensuring economic development. There is also the matter of consultations with the Aboriginal communities, which is essential.

As we mentioned, we have seen cases where projects were launched, but there had not been sufficient consultation at the outset. A lot of time goes by and, in the end, the project does not come to fruition because of that.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

If I am not mistaken, this is the reason behind your recommendation 4.52, aiming at correcting this situation.

[Sheila Fraser]

Of course, we encourage the department to work on finalizing agreements as quickly as possible. We see that they have made progress, but land claim agreements have yet to be completed for approximately 30% of the territory.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

And where are these lands? This is not limited to the Northwest Territories; there is also Alberta and Saskatchewan.

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, this audit dealt exclusively with the Northwest Territories. We did not extend the audit to the entire country.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

In the Northwest Territories proper, there are only...

[Sheila Fraser]

For approximately 30%.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

That is enormous when we are dealing with economic development.

You state the following at recommendation 4.89: “Indian and Northern Affairs Canada should ensure that benefits plans related to development projects under the Canada Oil and Gas Operations Act meet the requirements set out in the Department's guidelines before approving projects [...]“.

Do you believe that the department obtained the opinion of the First Nations before establishing for this specific territory the environmental measures desired by these First Nations?

[Sheila Fraser]

I do not believe that we looked specifically at that issue. However, given the regimes in place in that area of the territories where land claims have been settled, there is obviously strong consultation and strong participation on the part of First Nations in order for them to agree to the project. They have a tremendous influence over economic development and environmental protection.

However, we did not examine that legislation specifically.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

From the time when those land claim settlements came into play and the rest, and given the delays, in your opinion, how many years of delay, approximately, with regard to the economic development of the territory, have been brought about because of this lack of...?

[Sheila Fraser]

We did not consider that aspect. Obviously, I believe that studies have been done on this, but we did not look at that aspect specifically.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

You have also seen that, after 11 years, there has still been no move to measure the cumulative effects, with a monitoring program, for example. Could you list for us the cumulative effects?

[Sheila Fraser]

The Commissioner of the environment could probably talk to you about the cumulative effects.

[Scott Vaughan, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Yes. As we mention in the chapter, a system for the measurement of the cumulative environmental effects has begun to be put in place, but we also observed, as you have stated, sir, that after 11 years, there still is no system in place.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Are there elements you base yourselves upon to measure the cumulative effects?

[Scott Vaughan]

Yes, we mention in this chapter that Environment Canada and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada even have systems to identify the needs so as to measure cumulative effects. We also noted that Environment Canada intends to put in place a system to measure indicators. Lastly, as Ms. Fraser was saying, a project was started but there is no project in place for the time being. There is no financial assistance for this project. There is therefore in fact no measurement system.