Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 15th, 2010

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What I've seen in a small community like Fond du Lac, one of my most northern communities, is that a jug of milk was $12, and now it's being comparable to $5 to purchase a 4-litre jug. But when we go to perishables, I see 80¢ a kilogram for the freight charge. With it going from community to community, from the most southern portion of the community to the farther north, and I see how it's been weighted... I'm not sure if I'm going to get this right or not, but just on the actual costs, how is it going to affect them? I see Canada Post is not involved any more and it's going right down to the distributors. Can you explain it?

[Patrick Borbey]

The 80¢ a kilogram is what people pay Canada Post, and we pay the difference. So if it costs $10 a kilogram to ship a particular product, the subsidy covers all of that. We're now reversing that, where we are going to set a subsidy per community that will be very transparent. Right now, people don't know that. They only see the 80¢ that they pay. They don't know that maybe we're paying $5, $7, or $8, or whatever it may be per kilogram.

The other thing is that it's extremely expensive to ship a lot of products by air. We talked about toothpaste a little earlier. It is extremely expensive to ship toothpaste by air when it's a non-perishable that could be stored and shipped through annual sealift or winter roads. At the end of the day, the consumer is going to benefit, because even with a high subsidy on those items you still end up paying more at the retail level than if it were shipped through sealift or road.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Clarke.

Mr. Lemay, you have five minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Borbey, I know you well. I am more interested in speaking with Ms. Copland. Let me tell you why. It is rare for an individual appearing before the committee to ask us two questions in their brief. I note that my colleagues have asked you questions, but you have asked us two and I will try to respond to them.

First what are the issues related to this new program? I will respond to you, Ms. Copland. Take care not to be had by the department. Make sure that you create a real advisory board, which will consult not only the department, but also those who should benefit from this program, meaning your people, and not only the southern merchants who will want to fill their pockets. You also asked the following question, “What do you believe are the priorities to ensure that northern communities have access to healthy affordable food?” It's not very complicated. You should be cautious and ensure that your committee is composed of individuals who are knowledgeable about the northern reality, and who do not want to fill their pockets, in the south. There are many of those.

I can assure you that all the committee members will watch you closely. I will probably be the last to speak. We will see each other again in a year's time. I will ask for a report by next year in order to determine how this has been implemented. I come from a region that supplied the north. I don't know how this will work over the next year, but I am very afraid that things will be centralized and that there will only be two or three major suppliers. This causes me great concern for you, in the north.

Furthermore with regard to the program objective, I think that you are right, Mr. Borbey. We need to be able to provide food and milk to the north as in the south. I would suggest that you consider the possibility of having, somewhere, warehouses to store non-perishable items. They could be stockpiled because there are planes that aren't full. Other products could be added, but the time to deal with them is lacking. You could verify this with your committee. I hope that it will be comprised of good individuals who are familiar with the issue, and not just people who want to put this on their resumé.

I suggest that you follow this extremely closely, and not only for Nunavut or the Northwest Territories. I have nothing against Yukon, but also watch northern Quebec, where there are some interesting examples.

I will not go on at length, but we will meet again. Let's promise to see each other in a year's time when the program is underway. You will start it off slowly. I want to wish you good luck, and above all, madam, please take care not to get the short end of the stick.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We'll leave that as a comment.

Ms. Copland, did you want to respond briefly?

[Elizabeth Copland]

[Witness speaks in Inuktitut.]

Thank you very much for your comments.

As I said, I agreed to try this new program because I have been frustrated with high prices. I live in the north and I understand how it is. I'll be accountable to all of northern Canada, not just Kivalliq or Baffin or Kitikmeot or northern Quebec, but to a lot of communities that are looking for affordable milk and eggs. As you said, I'm just the first member of the board, but over the summer other members will be nominated or appointed by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. But I hope these members will feel the same way I do.

Of course we'll be back in one year, and like you, I am looking forward to seeing how it's going to run.

Thank you.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

I don't want to disappoint Mr. Lemay, but I did have a couple of follow-up items, if I could, before we finish this section.

First, the notion that because more nutritious food is going to be subsidized and will be at lower cost, have you anticipated that the demand for those items is going to move upwards and thereby create a greater subsidy a year or two or five down the road?

Secondly, in terms of the differences between the old food mail program and the new Nutrition North program, to a point that you made, Mr. Borbey, there were problems in terms of the customer complaints and so on. What benefits does Nutrition North give the customer in terms of being able to express complaints and project changes to improve the service?

Those are the two points. If you could just comment on those that would be great.

[Patrick Borbey]

Thank you.

On the second, in terms of the consumer, obviously the advisory board will be an important mechanism by which that feedback can be relayed to us, although the department will also be there to listen and do some surveys to be able to see what the consumers are collecting. Health Canada will have a presence in the communities, so they will be able to help us monitor as well.

In terms of if the price is reduced for the most nutritious goods and if that consumption goes up, I think that would be a factor for success of the program. On the cost of the program, where we're putting pressure on the program because people are eating more nutritious goods, I think that as a public servant I would be better positioned to go to my minister and say that we need more resources than we have had in the past; that we've been seeing increased costs, no accountability, no certainty as to whether at the end of the day the benefits are being directed to the right people. Without pre-judging what Parliament and ministers would do, I think if that happened I would feel better about my position than I do now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Of course I can't speak for all the members, but I'm sure you'd get resounding support for that trend around this table as well, because that would be a great success.

I would like to thank you for this.

Members, we're going to take a brief suspension while we change the table over and begin our second hour.

Again, Ms. Copland, all the best in your new post, and we wish you well in this new program and the responsibilities that have come your way.

[Elizabeth Copland]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

All right, we'll suspend for three minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay, members, we'll get back to our seats and resume consideration of our study.

This is our final hour of witness testimony on our long-standing study on northern economic development, which dates back to October 2009, when at that time, our first meeting on the study, we invited officials from Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and also from CanNor. So we're back to that today.

We're going to give you a brief moment to do an opening statement and then we'll go directly to questions. The purpose of this is to tie up any loose ends if members have any final questions before we get to the stage of preparing a draft report.

We have with us, of course, Mr. Borbey, the ADM for northern affairs, who continues along with us. He is joined by Paula Isaak, director general, natural resources and environment branch. From CanNor, we welcome Michel Robillard, vice-president, and also Michael Nadler, the director general, policy and planning.

I think we'll just go to opening statements. I understand you have brief opening statements, Mr. Borbey and Monsieur Robillard.

Mr. Borbey, go ahead.

[Patrick Borbey]

I'll be very, very short.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about northern economic development. My colleagues and I are looking forward to receiving the results of your study, as it draws to a conclusion in the coming months.

As you know, supporting economic and social development in the north is one of the major priorities under Canada's northern strategy. One of the key barriers to economic development is the cumbersome and unpredictable regulatory system that I think has been discussed at this meeting, and that you've heard about from witnesses in the past. That is why since the last time we appeared the minister has launched an action plan responding to the recommendations from the McCrank report as well as previous recommendations from the Auditor General.

This action plan is aimed at improving the north's regulatory regime. In fact we are very proud that the minister was able to table the first bill under that action plan, the Nunavut planning and project assessment act, Bill C-25, which I hope this committee will be studying very soon.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Could you slow down a little bit? The interpreters are having trouble following you.

[Patrick Borbey]

I'd like to remind members that the regulatory system is not the only barrier or the only challenge that the north has. We've heard a lot about the infrastructure requirements. I'm sure you've heard, as well, that there are many, many requirements for infrastructure development, whether for public or private purposes in the north.

There are also capacity issues with respect to the human resource skills required to support development and ensure that northerners, particularly aboriginal people, participate in the economic opportunities of the north. It's not just people flying in and out from southern Canada.

These are some of the other big categories. Again, I hope your study will be able to provide some insights in those areas.

We'd be pleased to answer any questions with respect to the work we've been doing, in order to help with your work.

On that note, I would like to pass the floor to my colleague Michel, who will talk a little bit about CanNor.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you.

You have the floor, Mr. Robillard.

[Michel Robillard, Vice-President, Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency]

Thank you.

On behalf of the agency I would like to thank the chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak with you today. This is my third opportunity to talk with members of the committee. I'm joined this time by Michael Nadler, director general of policy and planning.

Each time I have had the opportunity to speak with you I have been able to advise of new progress made by CanNor in achieving its goal to support a strong and diversified economy across the north. This visit is no different. We continue to make progress in establishing the agency and in delivering on our important mandate. Here are some examples.

As of March 2010, CanNor has supported 202 projects and invested over $32 million in northern economic development and infrastructure. We have supported key sectors such as exploration and mining, tourism, fisheries, and arts and culture. We have also supported innovation by strengthening broadband access; by investing in geoscience; and by investing in key studies for the Baffin Island fishery.

As well, CanNor has helped communities to recover from the global economic downturn by leading the delivery of the Community Adjustment Fund and the Recreational Infrastructure Program across the north, creating jobs and opportunities in many communities.

On May 3, we launched the Northern Projects Management Office. Since the launch of the office, NPMO staff have undertaken engagement activities with industry, regulators, co-management boards, and government in all three territories. The NPMO is already working with interested clients, such as Canadian Zinc, Areva Canada and De Beers to help in regulatory path-finding for their projects.

Sustainable development in Canada's north is a vision that CanNor shares with many other organizations. The agency is working with many partners who share the same ambition for sustainable economic growth and prosperous communities across Canada's north. We are working with northerners, aboriginal people, business, and government toward the common goal of a dynamic economy in all three of Canada's territories.

I thank you again for your invitation to join you here today, and I welcome your questions regarding CanNor and economic development in Canada's north. My colleague and I will do our best to respond to your questions. However, should we not be able to give you an answer this afternoon, we will provide the clerk of the committee with a written response in the coming days.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Monsieur Robillard.

Now, members, if you're willing, instead of just going to the usual time format, I'll just keep the speaker list and we'll proceed, if that's agreeable. That way, members who have legitimate questions can just get on the list and we'll go one at a time until exhausted, as opposed to going with the usual seven-minute routine.

Are you okay with that? In other words, we'll keep a list. Okay?

Okay, so who would like to go first?

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I have two short questions.

At CanNor, what are the new programs or new moneys that wouldn't just be transferred from other departments who have already done that--for example, infrastructure, or strategic economic development that came from INAC, etc.?

Secondly, when talking to the president of CanNor several times, I was emphasizing the need to have a whole different strategy for the rural areas from the very modern capital cities, Whitehorse, Iqaluit, and Yellowknife, and she said that CanNor was definitely taking that into consideration in having those different strategies. I'd just like to hear about what you're doing differently for the very depressed rural communities in the north.

[Michel Robillard]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

In terms of your first question, when CanNor was created, SINED was a renewed SINED. From 2004 to 2009 we had the old-fashioned ways of administering SINED. When CanNor was created, the new renewed SINED was then transferred to CanNor. We considered this as being a renewed program. In addition to that, when CanNor was created we had already ended up with CAF, the community adjustment fund, which was also a new program, as well as RInC, the recreational infrastructure Canada program, which is another new program to support northern communities. These two programs were new. We started with the creation of CanNor, and SINED was a renewed program. In addition to that, we ended up with older programs such as ABC, Aboriginal Business Canada, and AED, aboriginal economic development, which are being renewed as we speak through the aboriginal economic development framework. It will probably be updated and upgraded in the next few months, after our consultation with northerners and aboriginals in the north.

With respect to the second one, over the last few months we have had many discussions within CanNor to create a new framework to deal with the kinds of issues we're facing—rural versus urban communities. My colleague Michael Nadler has been tasked with starting consultations first with our own offices and then doing a broader consultation with different stakeholders and partners to come up with a framework that will take into consideration these issues of urban versus rural communities. That means also looking at different ways of doing business in the north: supporting traditional economies and the social economy, looking at diversification, not only investing in the resource sector but also in tourism, developing a cultural industry, and supporting more and more traditional economies. In some remote communities, that's all they have, a traditional community. They're not near a resource sector or mines or so on.

So we need to look at these issues. Through our framework, we'll be addressing that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay.

Monsieur Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I will address Mr. Robillard, but Mr. Borbey can also respond.

We are completing our work and we will begin to give our analysts directions so that the drafting of the report can commence. I will share with you my feeling, and you can do with it whatever you want.

We have seen the arrival of CanNor as yet another administrative body. Many witnesses have come to talk to us about this. Don't ask me for their names. There have been so many of them, over the past few months, that I wouldn't be able to name them. I will not say that all the witnesses have talked about it. That would not be true. However, it happened on several occasions. For example, representatives from various mining exploration companies asked what you would do and what your role would be. Even with a little bit of perspective, they may not yet be able to see how you will integrate into an area such as the north.

To reassure all those fine people, could you give me an idea of what I could say to those who are telling us that, with regard to northern development, your organization is only an additional administrative layer and that they will have yet another obstacle in their way?

[Michel Robillard]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay. I will respond to your question by using an example and by talking about the mandate of the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency. CanNor is an economic development organization with a unique mandate north of the 60th parallel. We are working to ensure sustainable economic development in the Canadian north. Our main issue is economic development. We devote all of our efforts to that goal, all the more so that we now have a deputy minister who champions various northern issues.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

She can do no wrong, because she comes from my region.