Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 8th, 2011

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Does that have any bearing?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I think it does. I think you can quite clearly--

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

What you're saying is you may have talked to him over the fence rather than consulted with him in a formal meeting--

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I met with him and the Premier of the Northwest Territories in September. We discussed the potential for amendments to the NWT Act. I explained to them what the process was, and as I said earlier, I offered to consider any other amendments that they would consider--

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

If I may ask, Mr. Bevington, while the two of you were perhaps putting gasoline in your snow blowers, did you get any sense across the driveway that the finance minister was committed to the negotiations that his government is having with the federal government in a formal process that's taking place right here and right now that you expect—

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I fully support him in the work that he's doing.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Doesn't that make your bill redundant?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

No, it doesn't. If he can establish a higher borrowing limit with the Government of Canada during these negotiations, I think that's a great idea. My bill will set up a formula for the future. That's the difference.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rickford.

Members, we did get started just a bit early, so we have time for maybe two more questions. They can be two- to three-minute questions or so. One will be from the Liberals and one from the Conservatives.

Mr. Bagnell, did you want to go ahead? Then we'll have three minutes from the other side.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thanks. I just have one question.

Has anyone given any possible reason that this bill should not be supported? I know obviously the GNWT has to support any processes that would help to move it forward, so it would be supportive of all processes. Have you heard of—I'm not talking about some of the ridiculous comments from across—any single Canadian in the Northwest Territories or outside the Northwest Territories who had any objection to this bill?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I have yet to hear. There are people who are concerned with borrowing by governments. I have had emails from those people. Constituents of mine also feel that governments should not borrow any money at all, or should be very carefully monitored in terms of their borrowing capacity. That is a political point of view. To me, there have been very few of these. There have been a number of statements—

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

But you also have outlined that the GNWT has some very strict borrowing policies on what can be borrowed, and how much, which is why it has such a great credit rating.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

That's very correct. That's a thing that people should really look at, what we're doing in the Northwest Territories. We have to act responsibly. We have to develop the territory. We have to ensure that we have the fiscal ability to do that. Otherwise, we will miss the opportunities that are there to create an economy that will work for all of us.

When it comes to statements in the Legislative Assembly, I could speak to Mr. Menicoche, who is an MLA there as well. He spoke there yesterday. He said:Our Territory is responsible; it is acting in a manner that many other provinces should emulate, yet we do not have the fiscal capacity to do the things we need to do for our Territory. Our constituencies have many needs and we have limited dollars. I hope that the Members of this House will support this bill which gives the Northwest Territories the tools we need to continue to build a strong and beautiful part of Canada.

That's what Mr. Menicoche said yesterday in the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Mr. Rickford, you have three minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I understand that many experts have looked at this bill and what is proposed and have serious questions about its technical feasibility. I'm going to ask you a series of questions to which I would appreciate a detailed reply.

First, how would the estimated revenue number used to calculate the territorial borrowing limits be generated? Further to that, what information would be used? I can provide these questions to you in written format, Mr. Bevington. When is the estimate to be done and by whom? Does the federal government have to review this information? How will the Auditor General review it, to ensure it's transparent?

I have another question. Have you had a letter from the federal Auditor General, who I understand is responsible for overseeing and auditing the Northwest Territories government, or from anyone who has vetted your formula as appropriate? Do you have this kind of information at your disposal to submit to this committee for its consideration?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Do you want me to answer your first question?

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Sure.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

As I said to Mr. Bagnell, the Government of the Northwest Territories creates a budget. It's presented every February, prior to the fiscal year. In that budget, the projected revenues for the Government of the Northwest Territories are outlined by the government itself. That's clearly the path that would be taken with this bill. Once again, it's the responsibility of the Government of the Northwest Territories to determine its own revenues. I think that would fit well with this bill and with the spirit and intent of this bill.

So there's the process that would be followed. There is within the Northwest Territories Act still the flexibility for an appeal to a cabinet, if required.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I'll give you the list of technical questions there.

Mr. Bevington, in my last 20 seconds or so, has the Northwest Territories legislature formally voted on and endorsed your proposal?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

No, it hasn't.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Rickford.

Mr. Bevington, thank you for your appearance this morning.

Members, we're going to suspend briefly while we just change the table here and welcome our next witness.

Just for your benefit as well and to pick up on an earlier point, we will resume consideration of this bill on Thursday, March 24. We have the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, the Department of Finance, and the Government of the Northwest Territories as the three witnesses Thursday, March 24.

Mr. Bevington, as an associate member of the committee you may want to join us for that as well.

We hope at that point, by the way, that we may be able to get to clause-by-clause consideration. We will be available for that, if the committee wishes to do that. That's on the 24th.

Let's suspend for a few minutes, and then we'll begin our next segment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Welcome back, everyone.

We are taking up the second part of our meeting this morning. This is pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, March 2, on Bill C-575, An Act respecting the accountability and enhanced financial transparency of elected officials of First Nations communities.

We welcome, much like the earlier witness we had, the sponsor of the bill. Ms. Kelly Block is the member of Parliament for the riding of Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar. Of course, Ms. Block, you know the drill here. We will do an opening presentation of up to 10 minutes, and then we'll go to a seven-minute round for questions.

Members, just for your benefit, Ms. Block can only be with us until no more than about 20 minutes after the hour, so we'll see how our questions go and try to suspend no later than that.

Go ahead, Ms. Block, with your opening comments.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to be here to speak to my private member's bill, the First Nations Financial Transparency Act.

First and foremost, I'd like to thank my colleagues for their support in getting Bill C-575 this far. The bill addresses a very important issue. I'm glad that my Conservative colleagues and 15 members of the Liberal caucus voted in favour of giving the right to more effective governance to all first nations communities. The MPs deserve to be commended for supporting grassroots aboriginal Canadians.

Allow me to share a few facts about Saskatchewan. There are 70 first nations in Saskatchewan, and 61 are affiliated to one of the nine tribal councils. The majority are members of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. As of February 28, 2009, the total registered population of Saskatchewan first nations was 129,138 individuals. There are five linguistic groups represented in Saskatchewan: Cree, Dakota, Dene, Nakota, and Saulteaux. Treaties 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10 cover the province of Saskatchewan. Finally, the First Nations University of Canada is in Regina, Saskatchewan.

Knowing that my time was coming up on the order of precedence, I took the development of my private member's bill very seriously. It was important to me to address an issue that I believed all Canadians, and indeed all parliamentarians, would be able to support.

The issue of transparency and accountability is very important to me as a member of Parliament. I believe that members of first nations, like other Canadians, deserve transparency and accountability from their elected officials on the disclosure of remuneration derived from public funds.

Bill C-575 would ensure this and would level the playing field for all first nations communities. There is no consistency right now. Some first nations proactively disclose the information, some provide it when asked, and others outright refuse. It is clear this has been a long-standing issue for first nations community members trying to access the information.

Bill C-575 is a straightforward bill. If passed in its current form, it would require first nations to proactively disclose the salaries they earn and the expenses they have been reimbursed when the funds come from federal tax dollars.

To be honest with you, I find it quite perplexing that Bill C-575 has been met with as much resistance as it has. Elected officials across the country disclose this information as a matter of due course. As I stated earlier, aboriginal Canadians deserve the same level of disclosure from their politicians.

The bill does not increase the burden of reporting on first nations. The information is already collected, audited, and submitted to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. This straightforward legislation mandates the proactive disclosure of the information and allows the Minister of INAC to disclose it in the community profile section on the INAC website.

I'd like to briefly address the accusations that have been made surrounding this bill.

It has been suggested that Bill C-575 somehow makes troubling insinuations about first nations politicians. Nothing could be further from the truth. Bill C-575 makes no insinuations or judgments about the salary levels that first nations governments have the duty and indeed the right to set for themselves. It is my hope that Bill C-575 will be used as an effective tool to dispel some of the unfair generalizations that have been made.

Neither is Bill C-575 redundant or somehow unnecessary. If that were the case, I would not be getting letters, emails, and phone calls from first nations band members thanking me for introducing this bill.

I want to quote from a letter that I received on January 11. The quotation is as follows: “I am in total support of passing the First Nations Financial Transparency Act and I will/have been speaking to the grassroots people in the past few weeks. The only support to kill the act is from the leadership who do not favour the figures to be made available to band membersas well as to the mainstream public at large. It is just a given that the bill should have been there a long time ago. I am very happy you are doing this for the average band member of the first nations land.”

On October 3, I received another letter from a first nations member, who wrote, “I have felt compelled to email you my support for the first nations bill you have introduced. It is so long overdue and needed. The situation on my reserve is the former chief and council...”--and all names have been redacted, I would add--“...have to account for a whopping $1.3 million in oil moneys missing, yet no one ever hears about this, nor do the media care. With a bill of this nature, it could have been prevented, in my opinion. Please do all you can to have this bill passed and implemented immediately so that our future, the children, never have to go through this, as we have allowed through ignorance and deceit.”

Regardless of the facts behind these letters, one thing is clear: if passed, Bill C-575 will ensure that all first nations members know what their elected officials earn. I suppose it could be asked why this is important. I would like to point to just one example of excellent leadership.

Chief Darcy Bear of the Whitecap Dakota First Nation has taken his reserve from a 70% unemployment rate to a 4% unemployment rate. This is what he has to say about the issue and the bill, and I quote: “...I fully support Mrs. Block's private member's bill. Our prudent, ethical business-like approach has been vital to achieving that dramatic turnaround.”

He went on to say, “How can you attract banks and business partners into your community without being accountable and transparent to your own members? You can’t.”

This supports my belief that enhanced accountability will help spur economic development, create jobs, and fuel overall growth and success for first nations communities.

There are very good examples of transparent and accountable first nations governments. There are those, however, that are not. Bill C-575 will ensure transparency and accountability for all first nations communities.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, this is a very important issue, and this is a very important committee dealing with these very important issues. I urge you to have a broad, open dialogue on the issue with Canadians from coast to coast to coast. Amend Bill C-575, if necessary, and ensure that this legislation is passed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Ms. Block, thank you for your presentation.

We will begin with Mr. Russell, who has seven minutes.