Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Payne.

Now we'll continue with Mr. Lévesque for five minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to be meeting with our witnesses.

I very much sympathize with you, given the recurring red tape associated with the establishment of new agencies. As you know, I come from the riding of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, and we aren't too concerned about these matters. Perhaps things don't operate the same way as in Quebec either.

I'm very pleased to see Ms. Matthews today. In Nunavik, in particular, the federal Minister of Indian Affairs and the Quebec minister acknowledged that Nunavik now needed 1,000 housing units in order to be up to date. A negotiation has just been completed. The parties agreed on 340 housing units over five years.

I understand that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation may not have a lot of working capital. Ms. Matthews, am I mistaken in saying you currently have approximately $8 billion? Is it the Corporation that tells the various ministers involved the amount that is granted? If not, is it the minister who, through his bargaining power, can obtain the necessary funding to perform his duties?

We know that 340 housing units over five years for 14 communities represents 24 units per community. That doesn't even cover the annual population increase in each of the villages. I would like you to explain to me how the money is granted to the department and, based on the negotiations, in Quebec.

[Sharon Matthews]

On this one, I'm afraid, it is the Department of Indian Affairs, not CMHC, that is party to that agreement. CMHC will provide some advice and guidance in terms of research and on the ground, but we wouldn't be party to that agreement.

What I can tell you is what we do in Quebec, in particular in northern Quebec.

For CMHC, I've spoken about the $1.7 billion, the additional $1.9 billion in affordable housing initiatives. We got the renovation programs renewed. There's a great deal of funding out there at a federal level. In fact over $3 billion a year right now is being provided by the federal government.

Quebec gets over $600 million of that overall pot, and it's broken down for affordable housing, the stimulus dollars, or whatever. As I was saying in answer to one of the earlier questions, with the vast majority of the dollars we have for housing, we work in partnership with the Province of Quebec. They cost-match 50-50. In exchange for that, it is they who design, deliver, determine where the client groups are, whether it be in the south or the north, and what not.

As I said, I'm afraid I don't have a lot more information on the agreement you wanted me to refer to; that would be Indian and Northern Affairs. But certainly there is a lot of money flowing to the province of Quebec for affordable housing, and the Quebec government has the ability to choose how and where to use it within the province.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

The Minister of Indian Affairs has asked you for $600 million for Nunavik.

[Sharon Matthews]

Out of all of the money that CMHC would administer on behalf of the federal government for affordable housing, $600 million is what goes to the province of Quebec.

I can break it down for you. About $400 million of it is for support of existing social housing on the ground. So $400 million of the $1.7 billion that I spoke to in my opening comments would go to the Province of Quebec under a social housing agreement, which they administer.

In addition, they get about $29 million under the affordable housing initiative. They're getting $29 million in the suite of renovation programs. There is also about $22 million or $23 million for on-reserve programs.

CMHC directly delivers the on-reserve programs. The rest of it would be largely done by the Province of Quebec. With those funds, there are federal parameters around how a province would manage, and there's an accountability framework, but by and large they would manage and make the choices in terms of whom they're serving and how those programs are designed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Merci, Monsieur Lévesque.

Let's go now to Mr. Rickford for five minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you to all of the witnesses. As my colleague Rob said, many of you have come from a long distance to be with us today.

I believe my questions will be mostly to Ms. Matthews, vice-president for the assisted housing sector at CMHC.

I would like to preface my questions with recognition of what a terrific organization this is. It may not be in your sector per se, but I've had the opportunity to work with CMHC quite recently to help some municipalities out on some key infrastructure projects. I was very impressed with the calibre of the people, the scope of the work they do, and their willingness if not enthusiasm to help municipalities.

That said, I want to talk about the effectiveness of delivery through territorial housing corporations. As I understand it, CMHC has been delivering funds under Canada's economic action plan through existing arrangements with the territories. Typically this means that the housing corporations in each of the respective territories receive the funds.

This is a little bit of review here. I had an opportunity to review the Auditor General's report on the territories' housing corporations. With respect to the Northwest Territories, Madam Fraser noted that they needed to improve their management to ensure that they are meeting housing needs and being optimally cost-effective.

With respect to Nunavut, she identified some concerns around the need to monitor the activity of community partners, or to gauge whether units are being allocated to areas with the greatest need, and prioritizing maintenance or repairs.

She was somewhat more positive about the Yukon's performance but noted that they needed to be attentive to long-term strategic issues and to doing a better analysis of whether they are meeting housing needs.

Can you comment on how you're working with these partners to ensure that funds are being delivered in an effective manner to those who are in the most critical of housing needs?

[Sharon Matthews]

As I've said earlier in the discussion, there is a federal accountability framework in place. The partnering with territories and provinces allows for a 50-50 leveraging of cash, so there's a really important benefit to working in partnership.

The accountability framework involves such things as audited financial statements at the end of every year. We go through these to make sure the funds are actually spent as intended. There are also evaluation requirements built into various agreements.

I could certainly put forward to the committee a listing of that accountability framework, if it would help you.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I'd appreciate that, and I think all members would. Thank you.

I'm going to skip to Nunavut's housing needs. During our committee's visit to Iqaluit, I was struck by the activity.

[Sharon Matthews]

They're busy.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Yes, it's a very busy place. Certainly our government wanted to develop the kind of action plan that addresses the social, economic, and health consequences of overcrowding, noting that Nunavut was at twice the national level up until we took over government.

In 2006, our action plans focused on building up to 3,000 public housing units. If I understand this correctly, they were needed immediately just to bring overcrowding in Nunavut on par with the rest of Canada. Is that true?

[Sharon Matthews]

I can't speak to the number of units. Under the economic action plan, we were talking about dollars going out.

When the action plan was set out, the expectation was that nationally there would be something like 200,000 units impacted. I can tell you that we're well on our way to exceeding that.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

With respect to the 3,000 additional units for Nunavut since our 2006 call to action, do you have any idea, or perhaps somebody else could say, where we're at with that 3,000?

[Sharon Matthews]

I couldn't off the top of my head. I don't have the details on the units for Nunavut. I can tell you in terms of the money they've received. I can walk you through.

Under the action plan, there was the $100 million. They also got funding for seniors, persons with disabilities, they got funding for retrofit as well, but I can't give you the breakdown on the units, I'm afraid.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

I was going to get into some of the innovation in northern housing. This is something we haven't talked about yet. I think I've got about 30 seconds, but I just wanted to highlight a few of them.

As I understand, you've partnered with the Yukon Housing Corporation. We're increasing energy efficiency, reducing use by over 50%, also consistent with the desires of the community members, and the Nunavut Housing Corporation's award-winning fiveplex housing project's an excellent example of innovative projects that focus on energy efficiency, affordability, and sensitivity to Inuit lifestyle. Can you tell us more about the success of these projects?

Perhaps Paul wants to chime in on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We have no time. Just a very short comment—

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Mr. Chair, these are good-news answers. These people have travelled a long way.

[Sharon Matthews]

The Nunavut fiveplex was an award-winning design. A number of fiveplexes have been put together. There's a great deal of energy efficiency because the five units are being built together. As you said, it's very culturally sensitive to the needs up there.

For example, the kitchens are much, much bigger than you would normally see in regular housing. There's also a rear access you can use if you're a hunter. There are sinks and there are cutting areas you can isolate from the rest of the home. There is a lot of very interesting technology there. Again, I could give you a write-up and provide that to the committee, but it's a really good example of some of the new technologies.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I noticed Mr. Quassa was nodding his head in that respect.

Mr. Bevington, did you have another question? You're up next, if you want to, for five minutes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

You're giving me another chance, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Yes. Then we have Mr. Duncan, followed by Mr. Bagnell, and then that will be about it.

Go ahead, Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I would like to get Mr. Quassa to respond to the question I asked earlier about some of the impediments to getting the land use plan done in terms of where he saw the problem with the federal government and the land quantums.

As Mr. Overvold pointed out, in the development of a land use plan some lands are always going to be set aside. I've found that in following the negotiations on those, those have been issues of a great deal of interest to the federal government. Do you find this is something that impacts on the land use plan process?

[Paul Quassa]

I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

In developing a land use plan, certain lands are going to be set aside, non-development lands. A quantum is established. What I've noticed in the Northwest Territories, and I think Mr. Overvold spoke to it as well, is that these quantums are of great concern to the federal government, sometimes to the territorial government as well. Yet there is a review process for any land. That's a similar situation in Nunavut?