Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 15th, 2012

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

How long have you been trying to get this resolved?

[Debbie Morris]

This is fairly new. It's been in the process less than a year. As I was saying earlier, it's something we're trying to get through.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I think we're trying to get our heads around what could be a recommendation from this committee that would actually insist on some timeliness on these things. I think if, even in leaving, you came up with something that you would love to see in the recommendations of the report, we'd love to receive it at any time.

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

We would love to see a green light to go ahead and start using that. Let the process continue in the background, but let us use the land immediately.

There's no reason that—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

But it's clear that it's going to be yours.

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

Well, it's logical. If it's coming back to us—and Quebec and Ottawa agree it's coming back to us—why do we need to wait five to ten years to start making a dollar?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Okay. I think that's an interesting point that we can make.

From Hatchet Lake, we've seen a lot of examples of where things on top of the land are interesting—and certainly last week in the Okanagan we saw what people can do on top of the land in order to make money. But it seems that when the resources are below the land, it becomes more complex. Obviously in your case, two other first nations and two local municipalities are having to come together with a plan where you all agree.

Do you have any advice for this committee as to how you would do it again? What would be the minimum or optimal kind of consultation or structure that would ensure that you would be dealt with fairly in going forward, if you had to do this all again?

[Diane McDonald]

I could speak to that.

We're not talking about doing things over and over again. Even though we've developed a land use plan as a region, two other first nations communities are involved along with the municipal communities—and this was originally a partnership with the Province of Saskatchewan. Certainly the issue came about when the provincial and federal governments pulled back funding for land-use management. They took away that particular program and implemented the economic action plan a few years back. Certainly we want to build on what we have in our land use plan. We know it's in a draft and over the past six years we've been trying to get financial assistance to revise that plan, but there is no commitment from anybody to provide any financial assistance for us to finish the plan and get the plan approved and implemented.

We want to work in partnership with the province and the federal government on managing the land and resources. We have a vision, and if you see the map in the chief's presentation, it shows you what we've already done over the years.

In terms of consultation, we've developed a protocol for the development and review process, and that's a joint initiative between the seven communities in the Athabasca region. Indeed, everything is done collectively among our Dene communities. That becomes an issue for the province, and especially industry, because industry has an interest in the resources right next to our communities.

We want to build a good relationship and ensure that our communities move away from third world living conditions. Even though we have good economic partnership programs, that doesn't mean they address everything we face, as the chief has outlined, in terms of the social aspects of it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Mr. Payne, we'll turn to you now, for seven minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank the witnesses for coming today. It's important that we hear your testimony.

My questions will be directed toward the Kahnawake council and Chief Phillips.

I understand that on February 16 you signed a memorandum of understanding with the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, with the ultimate goal of allowing Kahnawake to manage land and individual affairs autonomously while respecting Canada's past, and certain present, legal obligations.

I heard you talk about the casino issue, but can you tell us what other economic objectives that Kahnawake is looking at in the vision, the plan?

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

No, I don't mind telling you that the casino was the big thing, but there are several others. We're looking at pharmaceutical companies to help generate much-needed dollars on the reserve. At the Tewatohnhi’saktha, which is our economic development department, they are really brainstorming regularly on what can be brought in.

Our last update was on the wind energy turbines, which is just about a go. I can't recall the dollar amount annually that they will bring in, but there's a contract over a length of time. It's something like $50 million, I think, over a 15-year time span. It's guaranteed by Hydro-Québec, so that's a go.

The truck stop/hotel is another one, the whole nine yards. People in the community want to see more family-oriented activities, such as bowling alleys and multiplex movie cinemas, but if you look in the real world—Montreal, Ottawa, or wherever—these places are not doing so great themselves.

So in terms of a wise decision, is it a wise decision? I don't think so. We don't have the luxury to gamble the people of Kahnawake's money on anything but a sure thing.

I don't know if that answered your question or if that skipped around it.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

No, that helps.

[Debbie Morris]

Our main asset is our location, the way we could provide service to the surrounding communities. As you know, we're just across the river from Montreal. That is how we foresee creating economic development.

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

Adding to what Debbie just said, there is something that we're hopeful about, and that's the possibility of creating a port. The St. Lawrence Seaway system was built through Kahnawake, through the heart of our community. I think thousands of acres were expropriated for the St. Lawrence Seaway system. The foundation of my grandfather's house is still there in between the St. Lawrence River and the channel that was carved out in the mid-1950s.

So we have the location. Kahnawake is all about location. The port of Montreal is over its limits. It has exceeded its limits. There is no room for expansion at the port of Montreal. There's no room for anything. It would be of benefit to everybody if we were to pull that one off, opening a port of Kahnawake.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

You talked about pharmaceuticals. Is that a research facility, or is that manufacturing, or...?

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

Right now I guess it's more like the dispensing of medication. It's not a huge endeavour, but it's something that's being thrown at us.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Looking out 10 or 15 years, what do you see for Kahnawake?

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

Well, I'll share with you that coming back from a trip from Toronto, I met up with a real estate developer with a huge company worldwide with 30,000 employees. We started talking and kicking things around. He was representing a huge U.S. company that was looking for a stretch of land in our area.

We came very close—very close, almost signing on the dotted line—to something that would have generated $50 million a year and created 400 jobs. It was just leasing our land for a distribution centre of a huge U.S. company.

The only obstacle was the Quebec political environment. It was not us or anything to do with ATR or whatever; it was the political climate in Quebec.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay. I was wondering what was happening with that and if there was any further opportunity for you there.

Maybe you could just briefly tell us what's holding you back from the Kahnawake to meet that vision and move forward to the future.

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

I guess our land base is key here. I mentioned earlier that 85% is privately owned. If we're looking at a territory that is only 15% owned by the “common”, I guess is the word, there's not much room for movement. We really need expansion.

You know, Kahnawake will never expropriate land from its own people. Personally, my family has a farm. It's no longer a farm—it's all residential now, but it was a working farm of 10 acres. We have family living on there. My brother has an acre and a half, my niece has an acre. Expropriate half of that? It's not going to happen. First of all, our people wouldn't allow it. There would be a revolt like you've never heard. That's out of the question.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay.

Just in terms of moving down the road and talking about land use and land codes, have you done a lot of work in that area? What do you see for the future? Have you developed those also for environmental...?

[Debbie Morris]

We have, but what we need to do, though, is build it hand in hand with our community members. I don't know if you're aware of this, but the Indian Act and how land is currently handled is totally foreign or opposite to how we traditionally held and managed our lands. Even the way that we lived on the land is not there any more.

We've all been raised under the Indian Act, so there's that type of mentality, as if were, that we face. However, there are still a lot of people who want to go back to a traditional way. So we need to iron that out and to be able to develop something that is suitable for us, something that we want for our own selves, not something that has been imposed upon us.

So yes, we have done a lot of work, and we are ready to begin a dialogue with our community on this. This is part and parcel of what you were speaking of earlier on the MOU that was signed.

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

Keep in mind that Mohawks are a matrilineal and matriarchal society, so everything is the women—landholders, everything. They elect the chiefs. They do everything in the traditional way of living. So we don't have much to say or do—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Chief Clinton Phillips]

—but just to listen and abide.