Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 17th, 2012

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you very much.

You heard the minister's testimony on Monday because you reflected on it. The minister seemed quite clear that the bill didn't apply to having to disclose the books of band-owned enterprises, just aggregated numbers. Is that the way you read the bill?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

My concern about that—and I know there was some thought on Monday in terms of a clarification around what it actually means. My read of it, and my read of the public sector accounting standards, is that this bill adds a bit more to the definition of what an entity is, and it adds to the definition of what an entity or a government business enterprise is beyond what is articulated in the public sector accounting principles.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

We also, I think, debated a previous document from the AFN that said it would increase already onerous reporting requirements. You said that's absolutely not true.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

Do you mean that this bill would increase onerous reporting requirements?

Well, it certainly would require first nations to ensure that they produce—and we do already—audited financial statements in response to obligations. But it would place upon first nations the obligation to disclose this more broadly within a specific period of time, and it would also require that we be subject to quite substantive punitive measures if we did not comply.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Did you get the sense from the minister that if a first nation is having trouble complying with this or doesn't have the internal capacity to do it, their funding would be cut off?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

I remember the discussion and the dialogue from the minister. It was around resorting to a superior court to enforce remedy, whether it be against a citizen or the minister himself.

To answer your question, I did get the indication that punitive measures by way of cutting federal transfers to a first nation are the ultimate result of non-compliance.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Was there not an organization set up to help...? I think maybe 200 or so first nations have participated in the coaching by the Institute on Governance, which was helping first nations to increase capacity. Was that organization not just cut in the last budget?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

There are several organizations that seek to assist in developing capacity for first nations. We mentioned the Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada and the First Nations Financial Management Board. The organization that was cut in the last budget was the First Nations Statistical Institute, which was seeking to assist in the development of accountability measures and in first nations providing information.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

In terms of—

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

I'm sorry....

I love having Karen here.

It is true that the cutbacks are far-reaching from the federal government. There are institutions that provide governance support or support for principles around creating good governance, whether in financial accountability or otherwise. One of those institutions was the National Centre for First Nations Governance, which was significantly cut back and is having to consider closing its doors, while the intention behind the governance centre was to create that support—or create the centre of excellence, if you want to call it that—that would support first nations governments during this transition period. So there's another challenge.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

It was to help them on the way to self-government and to being accountable to their members?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

That's right.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

So it was an organization coaching and increasing capacity in hundreds of first nations.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

You're right. The national centre was, of course, as its name implies, a national centre, and it engaged with a significant number of communities across the country in providing, really importantly, the sharing of information about what other communities are doing, providing assistance in terms of best practices in governance, and celebrating the successes that other communities are having by bringing those good practices to other communities.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I am thinking of the presentation. Without consultation, and without any explanation of the need for this bill, you're saying first nations are not happy with it.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

I think our chiefs are unhappy with this piece of legislation, and I've been before this committee expressing displeasure with other pieces of legislation. For the most part, the reality is that there is a thinking that the government is introducing legislation that seeks to define our governments for us.

What first nations are engaged in right now, as I said, is this amazing period of nation-building. Of course, nation-building or community development work happens from within each individual community. There is a need for institutional support around various activities linked to our nation-building. But to have another government define our governance priorities or our institutions for us is something that is and will continue to be unpalatable, and it is certainly contrary to the concept of our governments evolving and determining for ourselves our priorities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Ms. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

The minister didn't seem to know about the Montana decision. Has your organization looked at the jurisprudence around Montana and how it would affect this bill?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Bennett, you are out of time.

If there is a short answer.... I apologize for doing this, but—

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

The short answer to that is yes, and the requirement that disclosure of critical financial information must be and should be—I don't think there is any dispute with this—disclosed to our citizens. That is the obligation that our nations have—to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Block, we'll turn to you now for seven minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to join my colleagues in welcoming you to the committee today.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to sit in on these meetings. As you are aware, I introduced Bill C-575 back in October 2010.

I want to collect my thoughts around some of the things you have referenced in your opening statements and in some of your answers. You referenced the first nations fiscal management law. Is that correct?

Then you referenced the resolution passed in December 2010 by the AFN. And then, in response to some other questions, you have talked about first nations having the right to choose their governance priorities and how they will begin to define, perhaps, their financial accountability.

The absence of first nations choosing to share this information with their membership—which quite frankly seems to be the case for so many first nations members, certainly the ones I spoke to and those I continue to hear from to date—was the impetus for my introducing Bill C-575. They cannot access the financial information relating to their band. They ask for it; sometimes they get it, but many don't. Then they have to ask the minister to make this information available to them under the terms of their funding agreement.

My question to you is, why should these members have to ask the minister to release this information to them?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

I appreciate that you introduced Bill C-575, and I realize that the discussion has been ongoing for more than a year and a half. But I know that the perception out there that first nations do not disclose financial information to their citizens is greatly over-exaggerated. That's my assessment.

I can't account for those communities that don't. I think the number was 250 for which the minister had to undertake last year to release financial statements. I characterize the reality explaining why first nations citizens, of whom I am one, are seeking to get financial statements from the Minister of Indian Affairs as the reality of the relationship we have, or the governing structures we have, under the Indian Act. As our first nations change and develop their own institutions and create their own laws, the relationship with the minister—and having citizens going to the minister to seek and ask questions—will change.

I think about the question another way: how can the Minister of Indian Affairs and the parliamentarians around this table support our evolving governments—not to tell us how our government should change, or what rules or laws we should put in place, but how we can support the conversation within our communities, support our citizens in seeking and accessing the information that we require, and empower our citizens to direct the change that is sought within their communities, based upon our priorities?

As we move away from governance under the Indian Act, establish our own sources of revenue based upon fair access to lands and resources, and establish our own institutions of self-government, that relationship will change, and the accountability mechanisms will be those that are determined by our citizens.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I heard you suggest there was an understanding that this bill was seen to be shoring up the Indian Act, and at some point you talked about the need to bridge first nations who are in the process of nation building, who perhaps don't have the capacity to provide the information to move forward at this point. When you talk about Bill C-27, you talk about the fact that it places higher standards for first nations governments that surpass those for other elected officials in many other jurisdictions.

I would ask that you go back to the answer you gave to my colleague across the way when you talked about those higher standards, because that's not our understanding of Bill C-27. When you look at the fact that a resolution was passed in 2010 that there still are concerns about the level of information that is being given to first nations members when they ask for it...I would like to understand why you believe these higher standards might not be appropriate to put in place at this time.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould]

To address your question in a different way, transparency and accountability, which are articulated in this bill, go to one aspect of financial administration, and that is reporting. As we know, those first nations that are involved in the First Nations Financial Transparency Act, which used to be called the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act until the funding was cut, have gone through a process, a community-driven process, to look at financial administration from a more holistic perspective in terms of how we raise finances, budget expenditures, and the decisions that are made within our nations to ultimately report those expenditures.

In terms of Bill C-27...and the ultimate objective that I think we have around this table is, how we can support first nations and build capacity? I would say, with respect, that Bill C-27 does nothing to support or build capacity within first nations. It seeks to disclose financial statements in terms of what a first nation is doing on that end. In terms of supporting first nations and building capacity and building institutions of good government, this bill does not address that, in my opinion.

We, the first nations, are seeking to work in partnership with you, the lawmakers, around this table to develop appropriate mechanisms, the tools that are necessary to support first nations capacity-building and to develop those institutions of government we're faced with right now and want to pursue.