Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2012

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

It's just a function of posting these under any kind of certification with the board. It's an ability to have a forum for the questions to be asked as follow-up, and for a simplification of particular line items so that this bill, or any other kinds of transparency exercises that bands go through, can be understood by its members. Is that a fair statement?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Rickford, you are out of time. I think you have launched into another dialogue as well.

We'll turn now to Mr. Bevington for five minutes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I have a brief comment.

The parliamentary secretary has suggested that we could amend this bill. We have problems with the disclosure of private business information. We have problems with putting it on the Internet. We have problems with the government-to-government relationship this bill infringes on. And the new one is, we're not even getting the right information to the members of the band with this information. If you characterize this bill as a thoroughbred horse, it has three broken legs. The best thing to do with it would probably be to shoot it. It's not going to work for you.

With the Financial Management Board you have and the 98 bands that are interested in participating—I have a couple of questions. How long has it been in place? Could this have been moved forward more quickly with more resources attached to it by the Government of Canada? Are there ways we can enhance the turnover of bands to financial management acts? Is it possible to accelerate the process?

[Harold Calla]

Yes. The legislation was passed in 2005. To give you an example of some of the challenges in dealing with the Governor in Council and the political process, we didn't get a board until 2007. We went 27 months before we had a board, and then we had to begin doing the work. This has never been done anywhere else in the world. All of these things had to be tested to be consistent with practices that will be recognized, so it's taken a lot to get off the ground. It's taken a lot for communities to begin to examine why they need it. As I mentioned earlier, the consultation and accommodation requirements for first nations to cross the country to participate in these major initiatives has caused them to look at how they can arrange financing to acquire the equity in these initiatives that they want to acquire. So there's an interest now that wasn't there before.

I think that having the opportunity to get economic assets that you can put into the mainstream to help your community is the biggest incentive for first nations communities to move down this road. Even within the department, they've gone through a major revision in terms of their assessment of risk and readiness to accept federal funding. I heard out of the east that we've become a proxy for the assessment process for the department now. That's a very positive step. There's another incentive for first nations to want to become certified by the Financial Management Board and to reduce the burden on the department for doing these kinds of things.

We have been—and you probably won't hear this from anybody else—adequately funded by the department since we were created to be able to undertake the work that we're doing. That's going to start to get stretched as this take-up of the initiative grows. We have grown. I would say there are 20 first nations waiting in the queue to be certified by the Governor in Council. As this grows we're going to be stretched.

Remember, this legislation was passed with all-party support. Everybody understood the need for this initiative, and we are being responded to.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Chief Twinn, I think I've been staying in your facilities for about 30 years, driving up and down the Mackenzie Highway, so I appreciate you being here today. I know the long-term business record of your first nation.

My question to you is, do you think this act will slow down the ability and the desire of first nations to move on to this Financial Management Board? Is it going to create such reporting structures that many of the smaller ones are going to be overwhelmed with this?

[Chief Roland Twinn]

We are not a member of the Financial Management Board. What we've done, we've done under our section 35 Canadian Constitution rights, and we have done this for ourselves. Our laws are not static, they're not set in stone, and as the sophistication of membership and their requirements happen, there will be amendments. As far as we're concerned, there are several items. We have probably six or seven amendments to Bill C-27 that could allow us to do our business as we have for the last 30 or 40 years. They're in my submission here.

As far as slowing other first nations down is concerned, it's my opinion that we have to allow first nations to do things for themselves. We cannot be dictated to and say this is great for everybody. We cannot be painted with that single brush that Canada likes to paint first nations with. I'm not speaking against the Financial Management Board and the financial management act. If that is the choice of the first nations, they can do so. However, some of the things in Bill C-27 may be contrary and create an opposing interpretation, even within the nation.

I believe if we allow the membership to deal with accountability in terms of what they want, as evidenced by what's happened with our nation, they will require a high standard of accountability and transparency. When it comes to hockey tickets, I can't even get a pair of hockey tickets from a company without going to them and saying, hey, look what I've got, and offering it to the membership. That's how accountable they want us. I think our accountability standards are so much higher than what Bill C-27 does, because we also offer remedies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Chief.

We're going to turn now to Mr. Seeback, for five minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've listened to the testimony today with an enormous amount of interest.

Mr. Calla, I'm a person who can't do numbers. That's why I became a lawyer.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I think I speak on behalf of most lawyers when I say that numbers scared us, so we decided to do something else.

I want to go back to what you were talking about in terms of the system you work with under the financial management act. I think you said there are 633 first nations—actually, I think Shayla made the point—and 98 are sort of trying to get into the system, while 17 have passed their own financial administration laws.

I have a bunch of questions on that. With regard to the 98 that have applied, what was the length of time? How long did that stretch over?

[Harold Calla]

Now, 98% have applied since the act came into force in 2005. The scheduling started probably in about 2007.

Membertou's our star. They did it in basically eight weeks. It can take 18 months. This is driven by the first nation in terms of their commitment to put the resources that are needed into it.

One of the clarifications I want to make is that what's being asked for in this act, that you produce an audit available to your membership, that you comment on salaries—they're part of FMB standards.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I do see that. I understand the parallels. I haven't had the time to go through the summary yet. We got it today, and I browsed through it. But I do understand the parallels.

The distinction that I seem to see in this is that for people who want to go under the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, that's an opt-in program, as you've correctly described it. So people who opt in can go through and they can pass a financial administration law that's going to require a certain amount of financial disclosure that's somewhat similar to what's in our legislation.

I understand that. And I understand why you also think that's a great system. I think it is as well. You have lots of first nations that have applied.

Last week in committee, though, we heard from people...including Phyllis Sutherland, who was saying that she's not getting financial information, and she's requested it. She's had to request the information from the minister. We've heard that from other first nations as well. And the minister said, when he testified, that there are lots of first nations who get in touch with him saying, please, help us, because we can't get any information.

So I understand what you're saying, but I think the problem is that there's probably going to be a number of first nations that aren't going to apply to be under your management.

Would you agree with me there?

[Harold Calla]

Yes—unless they're incented to do so.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

What I see is a gap. It's great that we can have some first nations go through that and do that. I understand it. The same with first nations land management, the FNLMA; that's a great system for some first nations.

I think what you've heard from the parliamentary secretary is that we are open to some discussion on this, obviously. I'd love to.... You said you had lots of recommendations.

Mr. Chair, I have only a couple of seconds left, I assume.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You have a minute and a half.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Okay.

Noting that some first nations aren't going to go through the first nations statistical management act, what do you see as things that could be improved upon in this legislation?

[Harold Calla]

I believe it is not about the audit. It is about the financial management system and financial performance.

Again, there's a whole binder back there. We have spent five years developing a framework that would provide accountability and transparency into first nations communities that would not just focus on the historical.

It's too late. You know, it's like the Auditor General: the ship's out of the barn here.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Understood. I recognize that. The challenge is that we can't force people to go through your system, and some people, you've admitted, aren't going to.

So if we're going to try to have something else—

[Harold Calla]

That's a decision you made, though.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

—to provide some financial disclosure, which we think this legislation will....

I know you talked about going down into the “subs”, or whatever you called them, but what else do you think might need to be improved?

[Harold Calla]

Well, first what I'm going to say is that you're making a choice, as government, through this legislation, on how you're going to approach the issue. You've chosen a bill, Bill C-27. You might have chosen to suggest that maybe everyone should pass a financial administration law that's been certified by the Financial Management Board. That's within your purview, isn't it? I think that's more encompassing.

When I look at this, it doesn't respond, I think, to the increasing need of members to understand what's going on. Never mind what happened; it's what's going on today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Seeback. Your time has expired as well.

We're going to turn now to Mr. Gravelle. Welcome to our committee. You have five minutes.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not a regular member of this committee, so my questions may not be as technical. But I am interested in knowing this, and this question is directed at anyone here. If one of your councillors is a teacher, for example, on your reserve, would he or she have to declare their salary also? And if one of your board members has a business outside of the reserve, would he or she have to declare their wages?

[Chief Roland Twinn]

As far as the council in our acts is concerned, I believe we have to expose all of our incomes. The private sector is a little bit of a grey area for a part-time council member. The chief is most likely going to be held under much more scrutiny, because our council is part-time. As part-time...we don't pay them enough to make a living on, so they necessarily have to have full-time jobs, but that is not disclosed if it comes from the private sector.

All moneys they get from the first nation have to be disclosed. One of our council members may work for one of our entities. They have to disclose that in our audits.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

If I hear you correctly, if he works outside the reserve, he doesn't have to declare that income.